Image of Sarah Swanberg in a lilac shirt with the text, Acupuncture Marketing School podcast episode #66: Solo Acupuncturist to Multidisciplinary Wellness Centers with Sarah Swanberg

This week I’m talking with Sarah Swanberg, acupuncturist and co-founder of Indigo Wellness Centers in Connecticut.

Sarah shares her journey of expanding from a solo practitioner into two multi-disciplinary wellness centers with 15 staff members.

In this episode, we talk about: 

  • Creating a company culture that aligns with your values
  • What marketing has worked for Sarah and what hasn’t
  • Email newsletters as a powerful marketing tool for staying top of mind with patients
  • How books and media appearances can enhance your authority and credibility
  • Repurposing content and using platforms like Help a Reporter Out (HARO) to
  • Staying adaptable to the ups and downs of running a business
  • And more

I hope you enjoy this episode with Sarah!

Join me for the Acupuncture Business Planathon this Sunday!

>> Click here to learn more and register.

Can’t join us live? No problem. A replay will be sent out to everyone who registers.

If you’re a student OR finances are a little difficult year, feel free to email me at michelle@michellegrasek.com for a 1/2 off discount code.

Hope to see you there!

🎙️ Listen to Episode #66: Solo Acupuncturist to Multidisciplinary Wellness Centers with Sarah Swanberg

Show Notes:

Thank you to our sponsor:

This episode is sponsored by Jane. Jane is an all-in-one practice management software designed to help you streamline your Acupuncture practice. I use Jane in my practice and I love it! 💙

With helpful features like online booking, electronic charting, insurance billing, and much more, Jane works hard to keep up with your busy practice.  

If you’re interested in learning more, head to jane.app/acupuncture-us.

Don’t forget to use the code ACUSCHOOL1MO at sign-up for a one-month grace period inside Jane. 🕺

Transcript:

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (00:05):

Welcome to the Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast. I’m your host, Michelle Grasek, and I’m here to help you get visible in your community, take marketing action with confidence and get more patients in your practice and more money in your pocket every week. We both know you’re a talented, passionate acupuncturist and that acupuncture has the power to change lives. So let’s dive right into this episode and talk about how you can reach more patients.

(00:33):

Welcome. Today I’m talking with Sarah Swanberg, acupuncturist and co-founder of the Indigo Wellness Group in Connecticut. Sarah shares her journey of expanding into two locations with 15 staff members. In this episode, we talk about the challenges and rewards of transitioning from a solo practitioner to managing a team and creating a company culture. Sarah emphasizes the importance of defining your mission, vision, and values to guide the growth of your business, and she shares what marketing strategies have been effective in growing her practices, including email newsletters and repurposing content, as well as the impact that writing books and media appearances have had on building the wellness center’s authority and credibility. I really hope you enjoy this episode with Sarah.

[JANE.APP] (01:26):

Today’s episode is sponsored by Jane, an all-in-one practice management software with helpful features to power your acupuncture practice. Jane offers flexible scheduling options that match the way you work. You can offer one-on-one online sessions for initial consults, meeting in person and scheduling staggered appointments to accommodate treating patients across different treatment rooms. Whether you offer telehealth, in-person appointments or a mix of both, Jane has you covered. Keep the relaxation going with seamless checkout experience using Jane’s PCI compliant payment solution, Jane Payments. You can collect patient credit cards securely through your intake form or at the time of booking with an online booking payment policy. This can also help reduce no-shows in your practice, a win-win and Jane’s unlimited text and email reminders can be sent automatically before each appointment as an extra layer of no-show prevention. To learn more about Jane’s helpful features and how they can help you power your acupuncture practice, head to Jane.app/acupuncture-us to book a one-on-one demo with a member of the team. Or if you’re ready to get started, you can use the code, ACUSCHOOL1MO at the time of signup to get a one-month grace period apply to your new account. I’ll put the link and the code in the show notes to make it easy for you.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (02:53):

One last thing before we dive into Sarah’s episode, today, this Sunday, December 10th, I’m hosting the live Acupuncture Business Planathon. This is a really fun strategic goal setting and planning workshop to help you get organized, get inspired, and reach your goals for 2024. I absolutely love hosting this event. I’m a big planning nerd and this is my fourth year in a row that I’ve done this live workshop. If you love sinking your teeth into a planning and goal setting workbook, I hope you’ll join me. If you can’t attend in person, of course, no problem. A replay will be sent out to everyone who registers.

(03:34):

So in the planathon, we review your 2023, celebrate your successes from this year, and then we set goals and use the 90-day planner to outline a plan of action for 2024. This is a very low-key workshop. There are prizes, lots of journaling. I’ll be there in my PJs. Hopefully my cats will make an appearance as well. It’s worth two PDA credits, N-C-C-A-O-M. It’s $47. If you are a student, or finances are particularly tight right now, you are welcome to email me at michelle@michellegrasek.com for a half off code so that you can join us. Think of this like a sliding scale, but I can’t really do sliding scale with my online software, so it’s just 50% off, no questions asked. I really love this event and want as many people to join us as possible. The link is in my bio to sign up for the planathon. If you have questions, shoot me an email. I hope to see you there.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (04:35):

Let’s dive in with Sarah. Hi Sarah. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (04:42):

Hi Michelle. Thank you so much for having me.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (04:45):

Absolutely. So you are an acupuncturist who has built two practices that are integrative wellness centers, and I am excited to talk to you today about how you built those centers, what it was like to go from being a solo acupuncturist to running two pretty large offices and bringing on team members. If I recall correctly, you co-founded the Indigo Wellness Center with your sister, correct, who’s a registered dietician and a holistic nutritionist?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (05:18):

That is correct. I started on my own and we were Indigo, or I was Indigo Acupuncture and then brought on another acupuncturist, worked on a side project program with my sister after we had both done an amazing integrative medicine training program separately, but started to realize we could really work together on some cases that she had. She would want my Chinese medicine perspective, I would ask her nutrition questions and we’re really just doing that as sisters, do you know, like texting each other, all day long every day. She had a nutrition practice, she was partnered with somebody in New York City, she was moving out to Colorado trying to figure out how she would start a business on her own and it just sort of came to us one day. I’m like, “Why don’t we, I have the structure, why don’t you come into the fold and do your nutrition, but then we can really sort of build this more integrative approach that we were doing anyway, just take it more official?”

(06:11):

And the rest is really history from there, which I think we just love that so much, that idea of collaborating and really mind melding and bringing different approaches and thoughts and I think that’s just, I mean, I love conversations like this, even just you learn so much from each other. And we realized there was so much value in that, not just for ourselves, but for our patients and clients and then we met somebody who is a pelvic floor therapist who is interested in maybe coming on board. I always say like, with the building of this, I’m along for the ride too. Like, it just, the things have just fallen into place at the right time and it’s been a huge learning curve, but I really go with that trusting the universe vibe a lot. Not that there haven’t been really hard, difficult moments, Covid especially, but yeah, now we have two, locations and a team of 15, including admins.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (07:02):

That’s amazing. You have pelvic floor therapists, you have psychotherapists, you have a holistic skincare therapist, you have massage therapists, of course you have acupuncture and herbs, and then you have nutritionists or dieticians as well. Did I forget anyone?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (07:20):

I don’t think so. I now I’m at the point where I have to go down the list. It’s alphabetized.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (07:23):

Yeah, it’s quite a list. I was looking at the schedule that you shared on Instagram to help everyone understand like which practitioner is available in which location on which day, which was very helpful flow chart for people. I’m also so impressed that you are willing to go big enough to have practitioners like pelvic floor therapists because where I live, it’s pretty hard to find a pelvic floor therapist. People will drive probably up to an hour and they’re often either obscurely by themselves in private practice or they’re affiliated with a hospital. So it’s so nice to see them integrated and I just can’t imagine how much your patients benefit from having all of those people working together on their behalf in the same place that they just get to go to one place and have all these experiences.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (08:17):

Well, I think that’s really probably what has driven it is listening to our patients who are coming in and wondering, or talking to them and figuring out what they’re looking for. And they’re always asking us for referrals, “Do you know anybody that does this, anybody does that?” And for a while it was like, “No, I don’t know any pelvic floor therapist, but we all need them.” If you had, I have two kids myself and I just thought it was a rite of passage that you would sneeze and pee a little bit and everybody just sort of makes it feel like that’s normal. But the west coast is definitely, like, pelvic floor is much bigger part of the conversation and it’s coming here. So we have the luxury of being about 45 minutes outside of New York City, things that get really popular there, start to trickle out here and yeah, again, right time, right place.

(09:00):

The hospital systems here, we’re integrating pelvic floor into their women’s health centers, but that’s not a model that works great for the providers because they need an hour with their patients to really do the evals and they weren’t getting it. So I think one of the, like north stars for me growing this business too, is I want to be what we need to be for the patients and clients, but also for us providers who I’m sure you probably talk about this a lot too, is the burnout level out there, not just in our field, especially in more clinical hospital settings. It’s really hard right now. So the way our schedule works, yeah, to your point, it’s like Tetris here, like every week we’re like trying to figure out, or if somebody’s going to come in or somebody wants to extend or contract, we have to really look at it globally. But the way I work with people who are coming in, I’m like, how much do you want to work? How much would you be happy working? How much do you need to work and how much do you want to work? Then we are like builds back the schedule that way. And for me that changes. Sometimes I’m like, I can, I feel I have the bandwidth to see a lot of patients and then there are some times where I’m like, the business needs a lot of my attention on the, on the business side, so I can’t really be seeing new patients right now and I have to contract.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (10:12):

Sure, yeah. So how many days a week are you treating right now? Because as you said, I’m sure it’s an enormous amount of work to manage these two large office locations.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (10:23):

I’m treating three days a week right now, and then I have one day that’s like an admin day and then one day that is intended to be more of a personal day. But I tend to do meetings and…

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (10:35):

The admin overflow.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (10:37):

Ah, it’s the overflow. But some of it’s great. I mean, even conversations like this or meeting people. So it feels like there’s always, I would say the business is my third child. It’s always on my mind, how is it doing? What does it need? But I love it. I know my own burnout signs too. When I’m starting to feel cranky, then I like have to check what I’m doing and take things off my plate. But I love the acupuncture side of it, so that to me, when I have reduced that, I feel like I miss the skill and art of acupuncture.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (11:09):

Yeah, understandable. It’s a tough balance for sure. Do you have, you must have receptionists, what’s your admin support staff like?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (11:20):

Our office manager actually with a patient years ago who we just sort of connected and really just had a lot of chemistry, she was going through a transition and she was helping out for a couple hours in the evening. And over the course of the last few years, she’s really grown into this full office manager role. She also happened to be an esthetician, so she is our holistic esthetician also. She wears two hats, which I have found is a really, is something I’m going to think about more as we continue to build, what other skill sets do our providers have that they may want to bring into the team fold. So she really, I am an idea person, I have ideas, I’m not afraid to try things, see what sticks and she really helps me implement, she’s the Excel spreadsheet queen. She keeps things going.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (12:06):

So important to have an Excel spreadsheet person on your team.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (12:10):

Especially some of the, I can make them pretty and like I am such a visual person, so that’s helpful. Then we have two other part-time, but growing into more full-time role receptionists. They also, we’re trying to figure out what they like to do and what they can see. I mean, I really try to be like, well what, where do you think you could help us with this business and trying to figure out is that marketing roles? Like what else could they be doing to help? It’s always in flux here. We love it.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (12:39):

I really like the idea of when you hire someone, asking them what their strengths are, how they would like to participate, how they think they can best support and participate in the business. It’s sort of a new model of thinking about working as opposed to you’re hired for a specific job. You have to do all the parts that are on the job description, even if you hate them or feel not good at them. When I think about growing my own business, I also like to focus on how many hours do people really want to work? How many hours do they need to work? Like what sort of living are they trying to make? What is that intersection? What are their strengths? Because I don’t want to burn them out? And I know for myself and for so many people I’ve spoken to, that the more you feel aligned in your work, of course the happier you’re going to be and the more it flows and the more productive you are as a member of the team. I think that is such a better way of building a business, but it’s also very hard. Everyone is used to like, I don’t know how to describe it, maybe more rigid structures or just that idea that you’re going to work a nine to five, you’re going to just push through and do the thing. I love the idea of building in flexibility from the beginning for longevity for the individuals and for the business. But it’s very nuanced, I think. It takes time.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (14:14):

It is. But I think for me, like I want the vibe of this office to feel a certain way, like at ease and in flow and aligned. So you have to have people that are happy to be here. You can tell when you walk in somewhere and the employees are not happy. Like, I’ve felt it at restaurants, I felt it in medical care, like you just, I mean, I’m probably attuned to it as I bet you are, and a lot of your listeners are too. You can just feel the chi when it’s flowing and when it’s not. But I really, I want that. That is something I’m proud of. I want the people that work here to feel like they have a good quality of life and that they are thrilled to be part of the team, because this isn’t just work for most of us. This is a passion. This is something we really feel called to do. So how do we make that feel good? And even for our front, we just hired somebody who’s, she just finished a health coaching certificate and she wants to just sort of like be in the wellness fold and I’m like, I don’t know what that could grow into, but yeah, you feel like you get what we’re trying to do here, which is create this supportive bubble for our patients and clients and for ourselves. I’ve had to get clear on that. We haven’t, in the beginning building a business, I was like, people want to work with me, like you’re hired. Like, that was, it was a very…

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (15:24):

Yes, same, come in, please, come in.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (15:27):

It was a very low bar. I was just like, okay, cool. But I’ve had to get more clear on that over the years and now I really, it’s a gut feeling too, when I feel like somebody’s just going to click with our team. We have a lot of, we have a big team and we have a lot of personalities in the best way. Like people are really passionate about what they do, but like now I start to have to think about that or is this person going to be a good support fit for this provider? So yeah, it’s a lot of logistics and moving pieces, but I’m a puzzle person, so I feel like, like this feels natural to me and for the most part I love it.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (16:01):

I feel like in a nutshell it’s the idea of building that company culture where people are thrilled to be a part of the team, as you said. So I like that. I’m always trying to distill like, what am I trying to describe when I hire someone, and I think that that summarizes it. So thank you for that.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (16:19):

You’re welcome. I actually think one of the more helpful things I did a couple years ago, which I sort of thought was like a little bit of a waste of time, but turned out not to be, was really writing down like the mission, vision values of what I wanted. Because now that’s like the north star for us. Here’s what we want to do. Does this person fit that? It’s not that everybody has to fit a hundred percent. Like we all have our things, but for the most part the person feels like they are enthusiastic and want to be helpful and educational, like those are the things that are important to us, then it works.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (16:51):

Sometimes I try to convince people to write their mission and vision and they’re like, ah, like it’s nobody’s, no one’s ever enthusiastic about that. I don’t know why. But I always remind them that you can start by thoughtfully word vomiting something, just like get it out of your head and then revisit, revisit every month or two months, and over time you’ll really be able to sort of massage it into something that’s very meaningful and useful. It acts as that north star, that litmus test so that you can use it to make decisions in your practice. But maybe the first time you write down your mission and vision, it just sounds really stilted or corny. But it definitely improves over time as you get experience and understanding like the direction you’re going in and what you want.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (17:40):

I think the first time I ever tried to do it just ended up like a page of doodles. Like I’m like, I don’t even know where to start. This feels so like, yeah, a little cheesy, a little like, I don’t know, it just didn’t feel totally aligned. But actually what I did, which I found really helpful was write down what I’m not like, what I don’t want to be. That sort of backed me into then being able to be like, okay, I don’t want to be clinical. I’m not a white coat type of person. I don’t want to feel pushy, I don’t want to feel preachy and serious. Then that naturally brought me into like, okay, then the opposite of that is what I want to be and want this business to be. So I had somebody tell me, well, you can’t put the, like, you can’t start with negativity. I’m like, no, no, that’s not the, that wasn’t the intention. It was really to sort of box myself into something that I was having a hard time defining.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (18:29):

Yeah, it’s actually, I think it is great advice for anyone out there who has struggled with their mission and vision in the past. Just because you’re sort of clarifying in reverse, you’re going to end up in the same place, but if you are having a hard time getting started, I think that is really, really helpful. I would love to pick your brain about the marketing that you think has really helped you grow the most, especially in the beginning. I feel like before people really get their feet under them in the first maybe five years, they’re sort of figuring out like, when am I going to hit my stride? When is this really going to work and feel easy in terms of patient flow? What worked for you in the beginning and what’s working for you now?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (19:15):

That’s a great question. I remember feeling so intimidated, like out of the gate of like how I really want to do this, but how am I going to do this? How does this become a successful business? I think I’ve always had this sort of philosophy of just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks and really having to let go of ego and if something doesn’t work or it feels like a waste of time, it’s not. I had a friend who gave me a card that said, “you win some, you learn some.” And I love that because sometimes it can be really hard and I think we can get in our own ways and we’re like, oh, I failed not doing things right. But in the beginning, I mean I really cared a lot about website and SEO, I knew that was important because people are, I mean, I’m googling everything, so I always try to put myself in the shoes of the person that’s looking for me.

(20:00):

If I’m Googling “natural solutions to foot pain,” whatever I want to be, I want my website to be able to come up when that happens. So I think at that point I had a friend of a friend of a friend who knew some SEO stuff and he just gave me like really basic advice. I think we had a beer and he was like make some YouTube videos. Like it’s all about the back link, so you need to get things other places that linked to your website. At Google at the time that was like a priority for them. I think the Google algorithm changes all the time and it can be really frustrating to try to stay up on that, but that’s something that’s helpful.

(20:33):

We run Google ads from time to time when I feel like we have the room and the budget for it. Then I’m, I carefully watch whether we’re getting new people in from those that helps Instagram. I mean, that’s how I found you and I think it is, it’s free, quote, unquote free, but it’s not because it takes time and effort and energy. But I learned so much from other acupuncturists there. Then I think it was getting clear on like through Instagram we had to follow and have conversations with local people and other accounts and other businesses. That actually felt much easier to me personally than just sort of cold calling businesses where you like go in and drop business cards off. That to me, like I still am not comfortable doing that. I think it’s like a fear of rejection or I don’t know what it is, but like, I don’t, like I don’t feel good doing that, so I feel like that chi isn’t there.

(21:25):

So yes, definitely Instagram. Then I think we had a couple friends who had micro influencer type of accounts at that time who they would come in and they’d post about it and that seemed really helpful. But we don’t do all of those things all the time anymore. These days it’s a little more structured and we start to start to really care more about our email lists and getting people on that and then we send weekly emails that are always educational and informative and helpful because I hate feeling like salesy and sticky. But in those emails, we’ll have like, here’s some opening appointments this week, if you’re interested, and here’s why we think you might want a massage. If you’re feeling super stressed out because your issues are in your tissues. And then people like, people book on those. We try to make it light and, I don’t want to say joyful all the time, it’s not always joyful out there in the world, but we definitely try to stay optimistic and helpful and practical too, because the last thing I want to do is add to that wellness noise of you’re not doing a good enough job.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (22:31):

Do you feel like every time you send one of those emails you get people on the schedule regardless of the topic of the email?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (22:40):

Yep, I do. I think for a long time I was hesitant to send weekly emails because I didn’t want to feel like we were just like, I don’t know, I don’t always like getting those emails every week or they go to my roll up or they go into my spam box, but I can see when I look at, we use Jane, which I think you do too, and I love.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (22:57):

Yes, love Jane.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (22:59):

There’s all these analytics now between that and Squarespace where you can see like who’s logging in when and every Tuesday, I see this big like spike in activity on both our website and on Jane. I think people are like, oh, yeah, I do need acupuncture, I forgot, and now here’s my easy opportunity to do it. So we’re just trying to make it easy for people without feeling like demanding anything from them.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (23:23):

Yes, I am always trying to convince people to send even two emails a month. I think a monthly email newsletter is too, they’re too far apart from each other. Four weeks is a really long time for people to forget their intention to make an appointment. And with two weeks it’s sort of a sweet spot because the practitioner has to put together the content, which can feel labor intensive, although there’s some ways to repurpose what you’ve already written so you’re not writing everything from scratch. But yeah, if I could convince everyone to send out a weekly email newsletter, I do not think that is too much. I’ve also found that for most people, like for my marketing clients and for my own practice, the topic of the email barely matters. I could write an email about knee pain and send it out and a couple people will pop on the schedule and none of them have knee pain. It’s just that they needed a reminder, “all right, I have been meaning to get on the acupuncture schedule.” Sometimes I think that realization takes a lot of pressure off of people about writing the perfect content before they can hit send, and also about whether they’re bothering people. You’re not. It’s just reminding them

[SARAH SWANBERG] (24:40):

Totally agree. I think it’s that mindset shift from bothering people. Yes, there are email accounts that I feel are bothersome and I unsubscribe and people unsubscribe from our emails too. I don’t, I used to feel like, what did I do wrong, and now I’m like, it’s not serving them right now. Sometimes they resubscribe later and so I really let go of that. But again, I put myself in the people’s shoes who were trying to reach and my attention span is short. Like I cannot remember same four days from now that I wanted to get a haircut last week. Then I’m like, oh gosh. Then I get an email from my hairstylist and I’m like, yes, I’m going to do that now. So I try to think of it like that and I try to make sure that I feel aligned and that I’m not being, the email content isn’t bothersome and then I can let that go.

(25:25):

But I do agree, something really did shift when we were doing weekly emails because it kept us top of mind. Then we always say at the bottom, if this would be helpful for somebody in your life, forward it. So if it is knee pain, isn’t for you, I probably got that tip from you. And people do, we can see that on the MailChimp stats that it’s been forwarded and I’m like, oh, this must’ve been helpful to somebody else. We try to stay topical if there’s things going on in the world or seasonally. If there are things that we feel like could be helpful, we add that we add products that we love and we see people click on those all the time. Then sometimes the products that we sell would, not with the intention of trying to always feel like we’re making money off the emails, but hey, this is something all of our providers like, or there’ll be an article in the New York Times about pelvic floor pt.

(26:11):

We’ll include that in there and then we have a flow chart so everything starts on email and then the next week it’ll show up on our Instagram feed. We try to do that because we feel like we want people subscribing because Their emails are valuable to us and when we have this one-on-one connection and you don’t see everything on Instagram. Then we later repurpose the content on our blog on our website, which people aren’t really like reading all the time, but for Google purposes they like blog content. We keep this flowchart and we do a monthly meeting. My sister now took over a lot of the social media piece of it and she’s sort of driving that. So I needed to get like one thing off my plate and she’s great at it. She has a great presence on Instagram. She has her own account with a lot of followers, so we’re like, okay, you’re great. You’re good at this. And naturally good, so you take it and run, and she really likes it. So yeah, and then there are times where we’ll go into a little drought for a minute where nobody’s feeling like inspired for Instagram and I’m like, that’s okay, it happens.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (27:12):

Oh man, I have so many thoughts, I’m afraid to get distracted and lose them. So one, I would say that repurposing content is the way to survive and thrive in the digital world. Because if you have written something for your newsletter or for Instagram or blog post, it doesn’t matter what your starting point is, you took the time to create something, all you have to do is gently repurpose it for other platforms. In some cases, that’s copy and paste. I love that you have the flow chart so that you are doing the same thing every month. So for you guys, it starts as a newsletter, then that content shows up on Instagram and then it goes to your blog. I absolutely agree that even if you feel like your blog’s not getting a ton of traffic, Google loves websites that are updated regularly. So you probably have a hundred pages on your website from long-term blog writing compared to somebody down the street from you who’s never written a blog. I bet they have seven or eight pages tops on their website. Whereas your 100 blog posts are crammed with keywords that people are actually looking for. And Google cares about that.

(28:28):

I’m so happy to hear you say all those things. Also, I really love that you put the, please forward this to someone who needs it at the bottom of your email newsletter. I ask my students to do that all the time because sometimes marketing is just inserting a really good idea into someone’s brain. We’re like, oh, you know what, my aunt has migraines and she’s always wanted to try acupuncture. Why have I never forwarded this to her before? Here we go. It’s one click.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (28:54):

Yes, sometimes we just need to be told what to do. Like, yes, we all have so much going on and you’re like just that prompt. Know somebody with knee pain? Forward this. Then I’ll automatically just go through my mental catalog of do I know somebody did tell me they have knee pain? Who was that at that dinner party last week? Let me forward this to them. Then they feel, they appreciate that too and sometimes they subscribe and sometimes they don’t. But I do like those prompts for people. Make it simple and make it easy too.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (29:23):

Yes. So you’ve also written a couple books and I am so curious if you feel like those have helped with patient referrals, if they’ve increased your authority as far as patients are concerned. Because I think writing books is an enormous amount of work. Do you feel like that has been working well and it contributes?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (29:45):

I think yes, in the authority level it has. When people see that you have books or they pick them up, that definitely just, in the mind of people who may be very uncomfortable with the idea of acupuncture or what we’re trying to do, maybe they’re very western medicine focused, it does sort of validate it for them in a sense. Not that I believe it needs to be validated because I love this so much, but I do think for the general population, this stuff can be helpful. I mean, it’s a tremendous amount of work. I don’t recommend everybody just go out and write a book unless you feel like you love writing and this is something you’re passionate about, but it is helpful. The first book that I wrote that was A Patient’s Guide to Acupuncture. It’s very simple sort of understanding and explanation of what we’re doing in the treatment room.

(30:30):

We all probably have those patients sometimes that have a ton of questions and it just feels like they’re so curious. I mean, that was me as an acupuncture patient however long ago. It’s really what propelled me into this. I was so curious. It was something that I just needed to know more about. So when I do have those patients, I’ll give them a copy of the book. We have plenty here or I will recommend it and we’ve had people that will send it to other friends and family. So yes, on that level it’s been really helpful. Not so much on a marketing level, more of just like when people see it or hear about it. Oh, okay, clearly you must know what you’re doing if somebody let you write a book.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (31:07):

Yes, and I know that quite a few people in your offices have had a lot of really big media appearances and I think that it helps when you are pitching yourself to get on television, for example, if you’ve written a book. I mean that authority piece that you’re talking about, I think it really lends a lot of credibility to why they should choose you over someone else. I’m so curious, I noticed your sister in particular has had a ton of media appearances. Do you feel like that has contributed to people knowing about your office or not so much because she’s her own practitioner and she’s talking about nutrition? Like how does that play into your visibility for your offices?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (31:54):

Yeah, absolutely, it has. When she was in a practice in New York City before she joined forces with me, she was with somebody who had done a lot of media experience and training and then Carolyn actually did a media training with somebody that was hugely helpful for her, just in feeling confident in how you sort of, how you do this even when you feel like you know what you’re talking about. So this was almost like pre-Instagram. She had had a lot of, I think she had a Today Show on, she had a, like a Fox Morning show, Nutrition Focus thing. That really helped her grow her own personal brand and Instagram following, which then of course has helped us as we grow because she has a lot of people in the nutrition and wellness world following her and then they’re curious about what we’re doing.

(32:38):

So it all helps. I mean, she really got very fortunate, I think like right time and right place for that thing. These days media appearances might be harder to get. I mean there’s, harder and easier in some ways. I heard somebody the other day telling me like, it used to be harder to get in front of the journalists and now everybody’s on Instagram, so you can DM them. They might not respond, but like if you have something you think they might be interested in, like drop a note in somebody’s inbox on LinkedIn, on Instagram, they might see it and they may want to have you on. So that’s something we’re thinking about doing more in the new year, sort of using LinkedIn and trying to get connections with other business owners, journalists. But there are times, I mean I think that Help A Reporter Out can be really great as people are starting the HARO because sometimes just even having a blurb with your name on it on some sort of publication, then you can use that on your website, it really does help feed that credibility piece.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (33:36):

Absolutely. So it does sound like her big media appearances were really before you guys got together. And can you tell everybody listening just a little bit more about the Help A Reporter Out? Because I have heard of that before and I think it’s pretty brilliant.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (33:50):

It’s great. It’s a website that’s used by journalists when they’re looking for quotes or they’re looking for an expert to speak on a source. Then you can, they will say like, what the topic is, what it’s for, and then you can sort of pitch them back. So you sign up for this website and then you say, yeah, I am an acupuncturist, I’m a doctor of Chinese medicine in Connecticut and this is what I could add to your piece. If they want to use you, they respond and then you write something. So that’s a really great way to get some press. I’m not sure too much about like other ways to get in in front of press people. Some of it’s just happened sort of naturally for us. But it is fun. It’s nice to like see something about you or your business or some sort of, I think we all have so much information when we get out of school and then we have so much imposter syndrome and we’re afraid to get out there, but there’s so much we can teach people. So sort of trusting in that is a good first move.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (34:47):

I think it’s sort of nice to think about building up your media presence or your authority, sort of step by step for a lot of people it’s scary to even think about going viral on Instagram and you know, the thought of being invited on Dr. Oz might be totally terrifying. I know I would probably be like, “Hmm, I might have to pass. Sorry. Dr. Oz. I feel unprepared.”

[SARAH SWANBERG] (35:09):

Well, to be fair, well the Dr. Oz one was about a decade ago. I think we’re taking that off the list now. He’s become a little controversial. One of the things that we —

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (35:19):

Oh, has he, oh, sorry, I’m clueless about media stuff guys. Sorry if he’s turned into a creep.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (35:26):

He’s gotten into politics and that’s a whole other, that’s a Google rabbit hole to find yourself in. Yeah, so a lot of these things can feel really intimidating when you’re asked. I was asked to do something about cupping when Michael Phelps first had his cupping marks in the Olympics. I mean, that’s probably like eight or 10 years ago and I was so nervous. But some of it’s just fake it till you make it. Put on that confidence hat and freak out later. But yeah, just sort of like trying to be calm and educational and practical, just trusting a little bit in that. It’s scary out there. It’s not for everybody and I think the thing about going viral on Instagram, I mean, we try to not have hot takes on things. I just think these days like you can just get yourself into way too much hot water and it can really erode some credibility if you’re out there just trying to be a lightning rod. There are times where we’ll have share opinions on things, but for the most part we try to say in the middle, in the gray zone, everything out there so black and white. The reality, especially when it comes to health and wellness is there’s no one size fits all and things that might be good for one person aren’t for the other. So we do, we try to like be careful in that sense too.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (36:42):

Fair. I think that’s a really nice approach to take. Do you feel like there has been any marketing that you’ve tried over the years that really fell flat, it just did not work, or you spent money that you wish you didn’t?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (36:55):

Definitely have. Always struggled with print marketing, advertising and things. I know some people love it and it works well. It just, to me, usually there’s such a big upfront expense in that and it’s hard to track what’s coming back. I know there are different ways now. I have a friend who owns a yoga studio and she’s just running an ad in a like local magazine and she’s using a very specific QR code so she can really track who’s coming in from that. And like, there’s definitely ways to do that. This magazine, it’s like $500 a month with a six-month commitment and I’m like, oh my God, what if it brings in nobody that’s like too much for me? So that’s just like a comfort level. I would rather spend my time doing other things. And if I hear from her that she’s gotten a lot of people from that, I talk to other business owners that are around here and know what’s working for them and we’ll try something out. But I like to be low-commitment because if something’s not working, I really like to be able to pivot and switch gears quickly.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (37:54):

I’m always a fan of the marketing that is free or low-cost, but takes more time and energy really for that same reason. Because, well maybe also because I like being more in control of it so that if it feels like it’s not 100% working or I’m unsure if people are coming from this marketing avenue that I can keep tweaking it as we go along. That’s the marketing that I really like the best.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (38:19):

I love that. I’m a tweaker too. I don’t like to stick with stuff. Like the idea of sticking with an ad for six months and being locked in is scary because I like the creative side of it too. Not to say that that won’t feel right someday.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (38:33):

So what do you feel like has been the hardest thing about, I suppose being a leader or like a boss as you’re bringing on more people and expanding into multiple locations?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (38:47):

That’s a great question. I think probably just keeping an eye on my own bandwidth, just trying to make sure I have enough to go around to my patients, my family, my friends. I’m social, I like to get out there, but I can really, I can burn out quickly because I put a lot of energy in. I have that roadrunner complex where you’re like, I’m great. I’m just running along and then all of a sudden, you’re like, where’s the ground, I’m going to fall. So I think that has been a challenge, but I’m really just learning to be more intuitive with myself and understanding those things before it’s too late. I want to be, at the end of the day, I really want to be a great provider here. So I want to feel like I can focus on every single patient that’s walking in the door and focus on the team. But it’s a big team and it’s a lot of responsibility, so that can feel daunting sometimes.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (39:39):

Sure.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (39:42):

But I really try to stay in a place of gratitude and know that like I had no idea this was possible 10 years ago. So I really just try to stay open and excited about what’s to come and knowing and expecting like every journey that there’ll be highs and lows, so just preparing myself for that too.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (40:03):

So important to keep that in mind. I think that we are always very fixated on the success piece and the outcome being positive or it being what we want and we forget that there’s going to be so much up and down in running a business, in a decade, in a year, even in a month sometimes I feel like great, like this went really well this month, this totally fell flat. Overall we are still in business. We are not in the red. This month we’re calling it a win. But to have that perspective in advance is really helpful, especially for acupuncturists who are just starting out to know that it is really, really normal for things to feel up and down and there’s going to be really great successes and there’s going to be other stuff that just doesn’t work out. And as you said, you just learn from it and then you let it go.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (40:57):

Exactly. That’s sort of what we’re teaching to our patients and clients all the time too. Like there’s a flow, there’s a rhythm, there’s a yin and a yang and there are seasons that will be bigger and brighter and there’ll be ones that will be slower. And over time I’ve really been able to figure out when those seasons are. I mean, September is always terrible for us because everybody’s back to school. No, I mean, most of our patients are moms of young children and that month is like, they can’t wait to get the kids back into school and they think they’re going to have all this time for themselves, but really, it’s all the back-to-school activities and trying to get used to a new schedule. So then October tends to really be a better month for us. And you have enough years you start to see those and know when to expect, oh, this will be a little chiller of a month and this will be a little busier of a month. Yeah, I mean Covid was the ultimate curve fall. We were closed for three months and so I’m like, if we can make it through that, we can make it through anything.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (41:54):

Yes, same, same. I have one more question for you and that is, what is your definition of success?

[SARAH SWANBERG] (42:04):

I love that question and I love listening to your podcast to hear people’s answers. And I think we were just talking about success and how that can feel different every day, every month, every year. So I have really tried to get rid of the definition of success being, I don’t know, the big house and white picket fence sort of idea of success in our culture and just knowing that every day what felt, what feels successful might be totally different than the last. To me that’s really defined by how whole do I feel at the end of the day? Like, how accomplished do I feel? And if I feel like my bandwidth is really low, that level of success might be much lower than what it might be on another day. But I go back, I love the four agreements. I don’t know if you know that philosophy, but it’s

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (42:50):

A little bit

[SARAH SWANBERG] (42:51):

It’s amazing and one part of it’s always do your best. If I feel like I did my best, I feel successful. Sometimes doing my best can mean apologizing to my child who maybe I was short with or just really trying to be in integrity. But yeah, my success metric, I think it’s all over the place. And even like this conversation today feels successful. I don’t know if you would’ve told me the day I was out of school that I would be on your podcast talking about how to run a successful business. That felt so, I don’t know so far away. So you’re my success today.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (43:29):

Aw, oh my gosh. Thank you so much. Who could have even said out of school that I would have this podcast? I never in a million years would have guessed if someone was like, “You’re going to have a podcast in 13 years.” I would’ve said, ‘That’s funny. What’s a podcast? I don’t listen to those.”

[SARAH SWANBERG] (43:43):

But I’m sure you were like, I love to help people. You’re like, I hope to help people someday now look what you’re doing on this bigger scale. So it’s very successful and I love watching what you’re doing and I think it’s so important for our profession. A lot of us get out of school think and like almost being told that we’re probably not going to be successful. I mean, I felt that way when I got out, so to have people that are like, here’s how you can do things. I’ve been doing a little coaching on my own with some people who are just coming out and I’m finding I love that so much because it’s fun to be able to cheerlead people and I can see it for them even when they can’t see it for themselves. It feels like a gift that we can hopefully keep passing on.

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (44:24):

Yes. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I have had so much fun in this conversation.

[SARAH SWANBERG] (44:30):

Thank you. I love being here. I love what you’re up to and I am so honored to be invited to chat with you.