How to turn website visitors into acupuncture patients with Kali Edwards of June Mango Design.

This week I’m talking with Kali Edwards, web designer and founder of June Mango Design Studio.

She works on websites for wellness entrepreneurs and has built many acupuncturist websites.

I’m excited to talk with her about what makes websites for acupuncturists more effective in turning visitors into patients.

In this episode, we discuss: 

  • The ideal website layout to get the attention of potential patients
  • How knowing your target market is essential for an effective website
  • What is a branding hierarchy?
  • One thing that’s a waste of space on your website
  • What is a positioning statement and where does it belong on your website? 
  • When writing less text is more beneficial on your site
  • How branding is both visual and visceral
  • And much more

Hope you enjoy this episode with Kai!

Show Notes:

🎙️ Listen to Episode #77: How to Turn Website Visitors into Acupuncture Patients with Kali Edwards:

💙 This episode is sponsored by Jane, a clinic management software and EMR.

The team at Jane understands that clocking out from the clinic doesn’t always mean you’re clocking out for the day. Instead, it’s often the start of charting long into the evening.

With time-saving charting features, like custom smart narratives, chart duplication, and dictation, Jane helps you finish charting your patient or client notes during work hours, not after hours.

And, to save you even more time, you have access to Jane’s Chart Template Library that’s fully stocked with pre-made templates that have been generously shared by practitioners in the community. You can even customize them further with charting tools, like side-by-side photos, checkboxes, and range scales.

To see how Jane can help you free up your evenings from admin tasks, head to the jane.app/more-time to book a personalized demo.

If you’re ready to get started, you can use the code ACUSCHOOL1MO at the time of sign-up for a 1-month grace period applied to your new account.

Subscribe to the Acupuncture Marketing School podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

 💖 Love the podcast? Help other acupuncturists find the podcast by leaving a review here.

Transcript:

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (00:05):

Welcome to the Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast. I’m your host, Michelle Grasek, and I’m here to help you get visible in your community, take marketing action with confidence and get more patients in your practice and more money in your pocket every week. We both know you’re a talented, passionate acupuncturist and that acupuncture has the power to change lives. So let’s dive right into this episode and talk about how you can reach more patients.

(00:33):

This week I’m talking with Kali Edwards, web designer and founder of June Mango Design. She works on websites for wellness entrepreneurs and has worked on many acupuncturist websites. So I’m excited to talk with her today about what makes websites for acupuncturists more effective in turning visitors into real-life patients. So in this episode, we discuss the ideal website layout to get the attention of potential patients, how knowing your target market is essential for an effective website, of course, what is a branding hierarchy, one thing that’s a waste of space on your website, what is a positioning statement and where does it belong on your website, when writing less text is more beneficial on your website, how branding is both visual and visceral, and much more. I really hope you enjoy this episode with Kali.

[JANE.APP] (01:29):

This episode is sponsored by Jane, a clinic management software and EMR. The team at Jane understands that clocking out from the clinic doesn’t always mean you’re clocking out for the day. Instead, it can be the start of charting long into the evening with time-saving charting features like custom smart narratives, chart duplication and dictation, Jane helps you finish charting your patient notes during work hours, not after hours. And to save you even more time, you have access to Jane’s chart template library that’s fully stock with pre-made templates that have been generously shared by other practitioners in the community. So you can even customize them with charting tools like Side-by-side photos, check boxes, and range scales. To see how Jane can help you free up your evenings from admin tasks, head to jane.app/more-time to book a personalized demo. But if you’re ready to get started, you can use the code [ACUSCHOOL1MO] at the time of signup for a one-month grace period applied to your new account. And of course, I will put the link in the code in the show notes to make it easy for you.

(02:40):

All right, let’s get into this discussion with Kali. Hello, Callie, how are you?

[KALI EDWARDS] (02:45):

I’m doing so good. How are you?

[MICHELLE] (02:48):

I am good. You run an amazing web design studio called June Mango, and I think you were the first person that I ever interviewed on my podcast.

[KALI] (02:59):

Oh, that’s awesome. I didn’t know that.

[MICHELLE] (03:02):

Yeah, so I was doing solo episodes for a little over a year and then I felt like it was really time to bring other people in fresh thoughts and ideas, and if I recall, I’m pretty certain you were the first person. So thank you for that. And thank you for coming back.

[KALI] (03:17):

Oh my gosh, I’m so happy to be back. I know we have so much to talk about. You wouldn’t think that there’d be so many web related things to talk about, but it seems like there are plenty that could keep us chatting for a while.

[MICHELLE] (03:27):

Oh yes, absolutely. Today what I would love to pick your brain about is what helps convert website visitors into real-life patients. Because you specialize in websites for wellness entrepreneurs, right? So this is something that you are working on all the time behind the scenes. And I think that a lot of acupuncturists, they don’t get a ton of traffic to their website. Like their visitor numbers per month are pretty small and so the people that they do get, it’s really important to convert them and not let them bounce. Like don’t let them leave without taking some sort of action, clicking the “schedule now” button, signing up for email, et cetera. So big picture, what is it that you think helps with conversions on someone’s homepage?

[KALI] (04:16):

Yeah, it’s such a big question, so I think we can really break it down, but I think there’s sort of like some technical parts that are worth thinking about and I can talk about those. And then I think that there’s sort of like a bigger question of how am I making sure that when someone lands on my site, they feel like I’m a great fit for them? And I think that that comes down to branding and how you’re making sure that you are aligned with whatever that end user is and hopefully future client and customer is. And then there’s just some technical, like I said, website stuff too, even just how things are laid out on the page. So we can talk about all those, but if you have one in particular that you’re more curious about first, I can start there.

[MICHELLE] (04:54):

Why don’t we start with some of the tech parts and how things are laid out on the page. I was literally just talking to someone who was frustrated about is this page not converting because the button’s in the wrong place? And then we just had a whole discussion about concepts of what’s above the fold and et cetera. So, I think that that thing feels very mysterious to the average business owner.

[KALI] (05:19):

Yeah, well, there’s some basic, I’ll sort of talk about some of the web design basics that are critical. Just, it’s like web 101. Like you just need these things and if you don’t have them on the website, you can pop over to your website and add them today. They’re pretty straightforward. But one of them is easy to find call-to-action. So that’s sort of what you were saying, like where is the button? How do I get there? And that doesn’t, it doesn’t, it’s not like there’s one perfect place to put a button necessarily. There’s a couple different places and we can talk about that, but just generally like the ease of navigation through the site, and especially on that homepage, if someone wanted to book appointment, let’s say maybe you have a scheduling button up in the top navigation, something like that. Something that’s really clear.

(06:02):

Or maybe there’s something in the footer so that they can access it from every page. It doesn’t necessarily matter where it is, although there are some key places like I just mentioned, as long as it’s easy to find regardless of where it’s at. So just ease of navigation and finding the call-to-actions and call-to-actions just mean what do you want them to do? So like you said, are they signing up for the newsletter? Is that clear? And even getting even more specific and thinking about there’s probably more than one call-to-action on the website generally, but even on the homepage, on the landing page. So what is it that you want them to do first? What’s the primary thing that you want them to do when you’re on the site, and then what’s the second thing? Because the primary thing probably is going to be schedule a session with me or get in touch. The secondary thing is probably going to be join the newsletter. Usually, that’s not the first thing you want them to do. So thinking about that, too, can also help you figure out like what is the hierarchy of what my buttons actually are, where they’re going, what I want them to do, what is my language that’s pointing them there, that sort of thing.

[MICHELLE] (07:05):

Do you feel like, so for the listeners, as I understand it, the concept of above the fold is when you land on someone’s website and you have not scrolled, that is considered above the fold, which comes from old, old newspapers, people still read newspapers, but from the idea that when you receive a newspaper, it’s folded in half and above the fold would be whatever is on the top portion of the front page that you can see when someone just like tosses it on your desk. So do you feel like that truly is the most valuable real estate and that they need to capitalize on how they’re using that space?

[KALI] (07:45):

I think it is. And also there’s sort of a, there’s something called the F pattern, which is sort of a helpful way to think about your landing page. So if you think, if you imagine an F, you have the stroke that comes straight down the left side, and then you have the two strokes that go horizontally across the very top and then a little bit further down. Obviously, there’s a slightly smaller stroke, not quite as wide. And that’s actually how most people do read through and scan through a website. So obviously, those two strokes that go horizontally across the top are probably above the fold. So they are probably going to start with at the very top corner and then move from left to right. And that’s usually where your navigation is. They’re taking in that top section maybe a little bit, whatever is up there as well.

(08:31):

Then they’re going to move back over and they’re going to come down the vertical stroke and then move again from left to right just a little bit further. And that’s where I tend to tell people to put like your tagline, your quick overview mission statement, who you are, who you work with, that sort of thing so that they’re getting that. So if we even stop there and we don’t go fully down the vertical stroke all the way, even further past those two horizontal strokes of the F, you’ve now showed and shared with them your logo, which is your brand and who you are, you name. All of the information that your website is going to hold, which is in your navigation, so your “about” page or “services,” yeah, your “contact,” your “schedule,” “booking” button, if you have that up there. So again, a nice place to put that.

(09:17):

And then as they’ve come down, they’ve also gotten a quick hit of understanding am I aligned with this acupuncturist? Do they specialize in fertility for example? Which is what I’m looking for. And maybe that’s not going to be that specific, but just more broadly, if they can get a little bit more information about who you are and why you are different and what makes you special or who you work with, they’re getting all of that in that one two punch of that F stroke. And then they’ll move down a little bit further of that stroke of the vertical stroke of the F and move down the page. And assuming that you haven’t lost them at that point, they will continue on and they’ll sort of continue to read left to right like that down the page. But a lot of people stop once they finish that F if they’re not interested. So regardless of who lands on the site, they should at least complete an F, and so that is helpful for understanding what should I put above the fold, like you say, sort of in that spot where, where they’re reading left to right.

[MICHELLE] (10:18):

So I find that a lot of people will say something to the effect of, welcome to my website in that above the fold space. So I’m assuming it would be the second smaller stroke of the F, it’s sort of like a, usually there’s a photo and then there’s text laying over it and sometimes they have another schedule now button. But a lot of people would just be like, welcome to Ageless Acupuncture. And I’m always trying to convince people to capitalize on that and think of it more as real estate when you’re just saying like, welcome, welcome to my website, more or less you’re really not using that space to the most effect. Because as you’re describing, what’s really helpful it sounds like, is to make some sort of statement to help people know who you serve, what your specialty is, or maybe you’re even describing your ideal patient. Would that be a space where you would say something about, are you struggling with X, Y, Z? Are you a runner to complete your next marathon? Something that specific or would that be further down?

[KALI] (11:28):

I think it depends on how you, sort of who you’re looking for. And that takes us a little bit into that. How do we know that they’re the right fit for you and you are the right fit for them? So if you are very niche in what you’re offering, it may be worthwhile to dive right into that niche or the pain points of that niche. If you serve multiple, you do multiple things, you work with runners, you work with people who maybe are just busy moms and they’re stressed and they just want to take a little acu nap or whatever, you might have a couple different people coming in and you may not want to get that specific. What I always tell people in terms of hierarchy is to, it’s like a branding hierarchy in my view. So we have your logo, which tells sort of who you are, and then I like to go into who you work with and what you do. And that can be a really short statement. It does not need to be very long at all. And then underneath that, and that’s sort of where we were talking about where people are.

(12:26):

Unfortunately, putting like, welcome to my website, which I agree is a waste of real estate, and then underneath that is where I tell them to put more like their positioning statement, which is what I call it. It’s not really a mission statement. People get those confused. A mission statement is like your internal why of why you’re doing what you’re doing. A positioning statement is more, a little bit of a deeper dive again into the who you are, what you do, and who you do it for. So it gives people a little bit more of a background and maybe like why you’re the best at it or something. And it can be like one to two sentences at the most. So that’s a little bit below that fold I would say, depending on how the website is laid out, but assuming people have followed through with that bottom part of the F. They’re going to more or less see that or at least get that quick hit of the overview of what it is. I agree. You should totally be using that above the fold real estate for something important and really clear. Not just like, not just something, even pain points is helpful, but it’s not as clear as if I have no idea where I’ve stumbled upon you. You know, maybe I found you in a Google search or something and I don’t know anything about what you do. I want to get the two-second summation of that before I have to do anything else.

[MICHELLE] (13:40):

Gotcha. Okay, and how do you feel about popups? I feel like this has long been a topic of contention within, maybe it’s all wellness people, but I know a lot of acupuncturists don’t like to have popups on their website because they consider them annoying. I think they are incredibly effective. What are your thoughts?

[KALI] (14:02):

I think they’re annoying and effective. I also think they’re very annoying. I think I get annoyed as an end user when they pop up. Half the time I don’t look at them. I also have signed up through things through the pop-up. I know that I’ve had popups on my site and I’ve gotten many a newsletter subscriber through them. So I think it depends again, on the value, especially when the popup is coming up because that’s another question? You can set it up so that as the user scrolls down the page it’s popping up so it’s maybe not the first thing they see. I find that to be very obnoxious. And I also find that it gets in the way, again of what we were just talking about, which is like, I don’t even know where I am, and all of a sudden, you’re popping up things at me. Like why would I sign up for your newsletter if I don’t even know, I don’t know how you can add value?

(14:54):

Exactly. I don’t know what the value of this newsletter is. So I think it’s a little bit of a both end, which is fine. It’s then for the person to decide, okay, what is it that I’m really trying to use my website for? Because Is it going to get in the way of people then booking an appointment. Or is it popping up so that people can book an appointment? And I find that that’s more effective. It just depends again, on the goals of the website, which is, and something that people sometimes forget to think about before they go and build their website is what their goals are. It seems so obvious, but it is worth thinking through, like why are you making this decision? Is it sort of an intentional decision at a popup or are you just doing it because you think you should?

[MICHELLE] (15:35):

Right. And I usually tell people to visit their own website on mobile because now with cookie consents and, you can have multiple popups on a website, which as you said can be pretty frustrating because you’re actually trying to read the website. I actually, I don’t think I have any popups on my website right now, my clinic one or my marketing one. And they used to be super valuable, but now I do agree with you. I just close them without reading them. I guess, do you know which ones I might pay attention to are the exit popups, because then I’m done. I’m done reading, as long as the website is somehow mind reading my exit intent correctly. And then something will pop up and then I have the opportunity to be like, this website was pretty good. I would give them my email or not, kind of depends.

[KALI] (16:33):

Yeah, exactly. And that’s worth thinking about too. There’s also ones that can pop up in the corner, so they’re there, but they’re not like in your face quite so much. And to be fair, then they’re less likely to be read, I think too, because they can be ignored. So again, it’s a little bit of trying to decide what is your goal, which one do you want to do? How much in people’s space do you need this to be? And accepting the consequence of that because the consequence, there’s maybe two options. One is they sign up, one is they leave your site annoyed. So it depends again, on what you want them to do. And you brought up a good point with mobile. That was one of the other sort of like core things that I think every website needs to be thinking about, regardless of consideration of conversion rates. But many, many people as we know are on their phones these days and they’re also probably not even reading as much on the desktop, like literally reading.

(17:30):

What I mean by that is in this age of TikTok, people are very into the scroll. So when they come to your website on mobile, they may even be more likely to view more on their phone than they will on the desktop, which is sort of an interesting point. So just making sure that it’s really cleaned up. Mobile can be a bit tricky. If you have a web designer, they should be doing that for you, but if you’ve set it up yourself, just make sure that you have gone in to crosscheck. And I know with different website builders you can see what it looks like when you’re building it, but also make sure you go and check it on your phone, check it on a friend’s phone, different size phones, different providers, obviously, can look just a little bit different and it’s just worth knowing. I literally just went to a website five minutes ago, I think I was trying to look at tacos and I couldn’t click the view menu button because they had this on mobile, for some reason, the text for the next section was overlaying the view menu button and I couldn’t view the menu and I was like, well, I can’t order tacos from you. I’m trying to give you my money. I literally can’t do it, and I left, I did not get the tacos. So it’s worth looking at the mobile site because literally they didn’t convert me into a customer because I couldn’t click the button.

[MICHELLE] (18:42):

There’s really nothing more tragic than a person who wants to give you their money, but from some tech or design glitch, they just cannot.

[KALI] (18:52):

Yes, literally, like if I —

[MICHELLE] (18:54):

That’s truly very sad.

[KALI] (18:55):

And listen, I could walk down there and just give them my cold hard cash and buy the tacos, but it’s raining. We were just talking about that before we started recording. I don’t feel like walking in the rain today to get the tacos. I just wanted to press the button. And people can be a little lazy obviously. So just knowing that and just double checking. And even double checking, again, like what is the first thing that people are seeing, that F pattern might look a little bit different on your phone. So just making sure that that is also set up in a way that you’re thinking again of how other people are seeing the site. Are they getting the information that they need in a clear way? You know what it is that you do, you know what it is that you offer, so it’s putting yourself in their shoes, viewing it through their eyes is a really helpful trick.

[MICHELLE] (19:39):

Yes, and I am pretty sure we talked about this in your previous interview, that knowing your potential patient is so important. How important do you feel copy or text is on a website? And I mean, I know it’s important and you always want to structure it so that you are speaking to your ideal patients of course. But I think a lot of people find that difficult and so they’re worried about whether the copy on their website is good enough. Is it a done is better than perfect situation?

[KALI] (20:18):

I think so, and I think if you are writing in your own voice, then I think again that is going to be a way in which people will connect with you or not. And the knot is okay too. I know that that sounds scary, but you don’t want someone to come in who for whatever reason just is not going to be a good fit, it’s going to be pain for you, it’s just not going to work out, or just they won’t come in. Let’s say they book a consultation and it ends up being a waste of time. So writing in the copy in general is one of the many touchpoints of your brand that helps people see if you are a good fit and makes them feel like, oh, I totally relate to what they’re saying. Or I just feel like this website makes me feel warm and I don’t even know why that is coming through with the photos and also the copy. I’ll say, too, we could go down a big rabbit hole talking about AI, but a lot of people are using and can use AI like chatGPT to write copy.

(21:19):

And you can put it in your own words or maybe say, can you help me write about this particular thing? Take what it’s written, use bits and pieces of it, filter that then into your own voice and it just, maybe I know writing copy is so hard. I find that that is the biggest sticking point for all of my clients, getting their copy ready, especially writing their about page for some reason writing about ourselves is so hard. If we just get a little outside help again, I think that there’s like ways and tricks and tools that you can use and the short answer is yes, done is better than perfect. Shorter is better than longer, as long as you get something up. And again, it’s clear I think you’re in good shape.

[MICHELLE] (22:03):

I was just talking to someone about different ways to use AI for marketing and we were discussing how I am afraid to lose my ability to write if I don’t practice regularly, like if I let AI take over and his suggestion was just to use AI to come up with brainstorming topic ideas and to create an outline. So if I wanted to write a blog post on a particular topic, then I would ask it to just give me an outline. So then you’re getting unstuck. You’re just filling in the paragraphs, you’re doing all the writing. And I thought that was a really nice approach because I know that a lot of people that I’ve been speaking to are pretty nervous about using AI for many different reasons, but it is, in some ways it’s just so time saving,

[KALI] (22:57):

It’s very time saving. And I agree. I think you do have to be careful with, especially when it just starts spitting out information about the types of work that you’re doing. Like if it’s, if you’re asking it to write a paragraph about cupping, it may not write something that’s wholly accurate or it might not get it exactly right with the way that you approach it. You know, it’s just, there’s obviously, a nuance there that it just can’t, it can’t manufacture. I agree. But just to give you, get your foot in the door so to speak, I think it can be helpful, particularly with copy because it’s so hard for people to get started. I think the outline is a great idea for that reason. But yeah, the getting started part, it just seems to really trip people up and I totally get it. So if there’s any tool that you can use, I say go for it.

[MICHELLE] (23:41):

For the about page, I’ll sometimes recommend that people have a genuine close family or friend write the about page for you. Have them write it about you because the way that they write it is going to be probably very flattering in a way that we would never write about ourselves. But an about page is generally in the third person and so you might as well have someone else get you started. So let’s say that you ask a good friend of yours who’s very familiar with all of your various professional accomplishments to write this about page for you, two paragraphs. You might get it and be like, oh my God, I can’t publish this. She makes me sound like I’m a genius. But you could edit it. You could just take it and be like, okay, I am going to bring this to a level where I feel comfortable with it, and then it’s off of your plate really. And it’s probably still going to be more flattering than if you had just written it yourself. Because I find a lot of people will just sort of list their degree and they’re pretty comfortable talking about like how they got to acupuncture. This is a nice story to tell, why they chose this profession, but it can be, it can become just like a list of things instead of a really warm touch point. So I don’t know if you ever recommend that, like have someone else take this off your plate.

[KALI] (24:59):

I’ve never thought about that and I think it’s brilliant. I think it’s sort of like when people talk about the sort of kind self-talk and they’re like, you would never speak to yourself the way, or you never speak to your friend the way you’re speaking to yourself in your mind. But in that same vein, I think it’s great if they made you sound like a genius because you probably are like. I think it’s okay to keep what they said. And I also, what I have always said is, you’re going to feel like you’re bragging and you’re not. People do not know all of the credentials that you hold. They do not know why you are so brilliant at this unless you tell them. And that is the whole point of what you’re putting on that page is to say, hello, I am an expert. I will take care of you. This is my job. And if you frame it that way, and if you think of it almost as like you’re helping people, you are helping them understand that you can help them, you’re really, it’s not, it’s almost not about you. It’s sort of about them understanding that you are going to do the best job for them. So it’s a bit of a reframe

[MICHELLE] (26:02):

And I think it’s very trust building as well. Like when you share all of your years of expertise and your degrees, it really does help someone who doesn’t know anything about acupuncture feel like, okay, this person’s been doing this for a little while. They have way more education than I expected. I’m probably safe to go there and give this a try.

[KALI] (26:23):

Totally. And that leads me to my third point that’s sort of for any website but especially for conversions, which is have testimonials. So you can put them, I a hundred percent want people to put them on the homepage because of what we were just talking about with people leaving the page a little bit higher is a little bit better, again for people leaving the page. But put them everywhere. Put them on your about page, put them on your services page, put one on your contact page before people get in touch as like a final like, oh yeah, this is really someone, they really can help me. Put them all over. It might, one of the things that I do see that people do on websites that I’ve never personally figured out exactly why this became a phenomenon, but to have a testimonials page. Because if no one clicks on that page, they are not seeing any of those beautiful testimonials. They don’t know if you have one or if you have 500. It doesn’t matter. And they’re not reading them. So just like what you were saying, it just helps position you as the expert that you are and it just builds trust. And trust is really the sort of sneaky thing that you’re trying to impart on people that will then convert them into getting in touch with you. Because if they feel like all these, it’s like Airbnb for example, if you saw something listed on Airbnb and they had zero reviews, you’d be like, I don’t know.

[MICHELLE] (27:43):

Do I want to be the first person?

[KALI] (27:45):

Exactly. It looks good, but it might stink. Like who knows? Literally I might walk in and it might smell terrible. So you see 50 reviews and everyone says it’s great, it’s really clean, Ari’s a great host, whatever., It builds trust and you’re more likely, you’re much more likely to book that Airbnb. The same is true on any wellness provider’s website, whether you’re an acupuncturist or an Airbnb host. The same is true. So testimonials are like the biggest, biggest thing besides literally having the button that then people can click. That’s like the one of the biggest things I always tell people they need to have.

[MICHELLE] (28:19):

So do you recommend putting the testimonials towards the bottom of that F that we were talking about on the landing page to sort of hopefully catch people with it before they decide, oh, I’m done perusing this website? Does it need to be that high up on the page? I

[KALI] (28:37):

Think it depends. This is one of those things that I think depends a little bit on your goals. Again, I don’t think there’s like one right answer. I think that it should be higher than the, sometimes people will put it like right at the bottom below the footer and I think that’s okay. But I would put it a little bit higher than that. I think especially, if you have done those two things we were talking about before, where you put the who you are, what you do, and who you’re working for, who you help, they have a good idea, an overview, and if you can then hit them with a testimonial right after that, they’re immediately going to feel like, oh, this person is a legitimate provider. They’re real, they have helped people. And again, they’re hopefully going to keep scrolling and then they would maybe see an overview of each service offering or something like that. And then whatever else you need to add to the homepage. Obviously, every homepage is a little different and you could even throw another testimonial at the bottom after that.

(29:27):

So more testimonials is not worse. Even on my website, just as an example, you don’t just have to put one. Sometimes people put the scrolling ones. I have a couple that are just in a bit of a row with sort of two columns. I think I have even 10 on there, and part of the reason I did that on my homepage is because I want people to understand that I’ve been doing this for a very long time and I have many, many people that I’ve worked with who have nice things to say. So it’s, again, it’s building trust. If I had one person that would be great, but if I have 10, isn’t that better? So you don’t have to put them all on the homepage like that. But again, that’s why I say sprinkle them through every time. Even if they don’t read them, just seeing that it exists will kind of, they’re sort of unconsciously like downloading that information, you know what I mean?

[MICHELLE] (30:12):

Yes, absolutely. On my website where I have testimonials, I have little, the little star emoji and I’ll put five of them so that people, it just is processing unconsciously. Even if they are scrolling past it and they don’t read it, they’re just like, there’s a five-star testimonial. Oh, there’s another one.

[KALI] (30:30):

Totally.

[MICHELLE] (30:31):

Very visual

[KALI] (30:32):

It’s brilliant. Well, because it’s like you said, they sort of know what that means. It means something to them. They know what a Google review looks like and how that has little stars. So they’re downloading that information even if they’re not sort of aware of it.

[MICHELLE] (30:45):

The question that I get all the time from my marketing clients is, well, first they want to know if they can have more than one target market. And so I tell them that most people do. Very few people are, for example, just treating fertility. And I would say that’s one of the more common specialties in acupuncture where people are very focused and only doing one thing because, of course, within fertility is a million other things, but it’s like that one heading. But a lot of people will say I love to treat pain. That’s my bread and butter. I really love anxiety. And then I also do cosmetic acupuncture. And so their question is, those are pretty disparate. Like how do I build a website that incorporates these things, especially in that above the fold space. We end up spending a lot of time talking about what to prioritize, how to structure things. I’m really curious what you would recommend for people in that position.

[KALI] (31:46):

Yeah, this is a common question I get with many people that, especially if you’ve been in it for a while. You probably do, you probably have branched out into some other areas. You don’t just work in one space. I always call this being more like an umbrella brand and the way I imagine it is sort of you are at the top and then you have all of these things that fall under your umbrella under what you do. And so sometimes this happens, too, with people who have done, even what you were saying seems actually, I mean I realize that there are different types of acupuncture that you’re doing within a clinic, for example, but sometimes people will come to me and say, I also do speaking or I’m writing a book and it’s like a totally different sort of thing. Maybe their audience for speaking is probably something completely different than the person who’s going to come be beyond your table. But it’s still, you are at the top of that.

(32:36):

So it’s totally doable first of all, and I think that it’s less overwhelming and sort of scary than people make it out to be. In thinking about the navigation, just organizing it’s really just like making space literally in the website. So you have a page for speaking and you have that sort of tab in the navigation that says speaking. And then you would be, again, in your copy and everything else you’re putting on that page, you are focused in speaking to that audience, which again is probably different than the audience that you have coming to your otherwise regular service offering page. So just keeping that in mind. So I would put it in the navigation and just lay it out. You could have it literally, you could have it as like your services in a dropdown that says fertility and then the other two, whatever they are. Or you could put them in separate tabs if you want to make it super, super clear. That leads me into like, is there room, like there’s design functionality questions about that, just like how it’s actually laid out. But I think the point is you just literally make a page or a space on the website for each one and then just make sure you are focused on speaking to that audience, like on each of those pages. And then the second point I would say is on the homepage, again, you can just have a couple different sections that then lead people, like give them a quick overview of that and then people can click out to those full pages to get more info.

[MICHELLE] (33:56):

So when they’re above the fold section, they could have that portion towards the top where they’re sort of expressing like who they’re and what they serve in like a big way, that’s like the umbrella, and then if you went towards the bottom of the F, that would a section for fertility and then maybe a section for pain and a section for anxiety. So like as people are scrolling, they can see the top three things that you work on. And then each of those sections would connect to that full page, so then they’ll click on it and it’ll bring them to the page about pain management and then it like answers all their questions.

[KALI] (34:31):

Totally. And there’s, I think sometimes people get overwhelmed going back to that top section like, well I don’t know, how do I make this succinct because I have three things? What should I say?

[MICHELLE] (34:43):

And that’s why they just say, “Welcome.”

[KALI] (34:45):

Exactly.

[MICHELLE] (34:45):

Welcome to Ageless Acupuncture because It really is hard. You’re like, how do I merge these three things and let people know immediately?

[KALI] (34:51):

And I think there’s a couple different ways you can go. One is sort of, there’s probably a through line for all of these different folks that you’re working with and thinking about what that is it could even be something completely basic like the area that you live in and work in. You could say I’m a seasoned acupuncturist working in the Capitol Hill area in DC or something. Like, it can be, that can be your overview statement and then again underneath you’re getting a little bit more specific. Or it could be like, I work with people who are, I don’t know, you can come up with whatever it is that like makes sense for all three of those things. But even again, if we were talking about something that felt totally different, like doing speaking along with that, saying who you are and what you do, and again, positioning yourself as that expert in that top area still allows them to feel like, oh, she’s such an expert that she also does speaking and she can come talk to the people in my clinic so that they can learn whatever from her. Do you know what I mean? Like you, that’s going to help no matter what for all of the things that you’re doing, because again, you are at the top, so you’re just talking about yourself and everything filters down from there.

[MICHELLE] (36:01):

I’ve had clients where ultimately in that above the fold page, we just decided to go super basic but literally would be like acupuncture for pain management, anxiety and digestion in Seneca Falls, New York or wherever. And it’s sort of, initially it feels clunky, it’s not like a beautiful through line that connects everything as you were talking about. But for people who land on the page and for your SEO, it’s not bad.

[KALI] (36:33):

It’s super, super clear

[MICHELLE] (36:34):

It’s just, it’s a little bit word vomiting, but it’s very clear. And so people know it’s a yes or a no for me

[KALI] (36:41):

It’s super clear. Exactly, because if you’re not coming for pain management, then oh okay, this maybe this person is not the right for, right person for me. And I just want to say too, I know I’m talking about it as if you’re sort of a solo practitioner, but like this can also work for your clinic where you have multiple people who work there and maybe each person specializes in something different. So again, you probably, if you are running everything in the clinic and running the website and all of the things there, there has to be a through line with the people you’ve hired, with what you’re offering. Like there still is something that connects the dots to all the people who work for you.

[MICHELLE] (37:18):

Yeah, I sometimes think about that as like the clinic takes on its own brand or has its own entity and then everyone else works there. It’s more complicated to think about, but definitely it definitely can be done.

[KALI] (37:33):

Totally. And I’ve seen, I’ve seen people do it where, and again, maybe the person who started the clinic doesn’t even treat anymore, but they do the workshops and so then there’s like a whole page dedicated to that. But it’s only related to her and it can get a little complicated and still be clear. So yes, I hope that doesn’t overcomplicate people’s understanding of it. But just to say that while it can seem very daunting, as long as you’re being sort of thoughtful and as clear as possible, then it’s actually you’re going to be fine.

[MICHELLE] (38:04):

I also love that you said less is more, less copy is more. And I think a lot of acupuncturists are pretty good writers. It’s something that people, I feel like they bring up to me that they enjoy when we’re discussing like what kinds of marketing would maybe play to your strengths? Writing comes up a lot. And I don’t know if it’s because in grad school there was a lot of writing and things could be, were expected to be exhaustive or if that’s just our style, but we tend to be longer winded. But that’s also daunting. You’re like, I’ve got to write something beautiful and expressive and if it’s short it’s like insufficient, but I think as you said this is the TikTok generation, people aren’t reading, they’re scrolling, so less is more. And that it also takes a lot of pressure off of the writer to just get that super simple message out there because people may not read the beautiful thing that you wrote, which crushes me as someone who likes both writing and reading. But it’s the truth.

[KALI] (39:09):

I often tell people, because I often get people who send me copy and it really is just a little too long and I feel like I’m the soul crusher a little bit. But what —

[MICHELLE] (39:20):

We put so much thought and work and heart into it

[KALI] (39:23):

I know that. And so what I usually tell them is, this would be a beautiful blog post. Let’s take 90% of this where you want to elaborate on whatever this is and put it in a blog post because it’s great for SEO, you have all this content, but it maybe doesn’t fit here on the services page or on the homepage. Everything for the most part, it’s sort of like as people move through the site, you’re elaborating a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. So the homepage is the first iteration of that. It should be very brief, just an overview, getting them where they need to go next and then again on the services pages you can elaborate a little bit more. And then if you really want to dive deep into like the 16 benefits of cupping, that should probably be a blog post. Not that it’s not worthwhile. I think especially if people want to know more about cupping, that can be a really great resource for them. It just doesn’t necessarily apply to everyone who’s on that page of the services page. And so you can put it somewhere else and you can link to it. You can say like, if you want to know more about cupping head over here and read this article that I wrote about it.

[MICHELLE] (40:27):

I love that. That’s sort of like the more time they spend on your website, the deeper they’re getting, the more they’re willing to read something in depth. And from an SEO perspective, having back links inside your own website to other pages on your website is a very good move. So you can use those, you can like max out those blog posts that you put so much time and energy into by linking to them so people can find them and makes Google happy.

[KALI] (40:54):

Exactly. And it’s another way to position yourself as an expert, which again, builds trust, which again increases your conversion rates. So it comes full circle.

[MICHELLE] (41:04):

Gotcha. So how do I put this? So I’m such a big fan of lead magnets. Not a lot of acupuncturists are doing any sort of lead magnet on their website. I’m generally happy when people just have a newsletter opt-in somewhere on their landing page because while I think that newsletter opt-ins are pretty vague, as you mentioned earlier, what is the value that I would be getting by giving this person my email? Some people are just interested. They’re like, oh, I think this business is cool, I’m going to go there. I want updates. I want to know what they’re about so I’m going to pop my name in the newsletter box. I think that conversion of signups is much higher when they have a specific reason, like a PDF lead magnet, if you’re a digestive specialist or you just want more digestive patients, if your lead magnet says something to the effect of how to banish belly bloat with Chinese medicine and then you give them like a one-page thing. But I do feel like it’s intimidating because it’s knowing how to create the PDF and then install it so that people can sign up and then automate the delivery. So do you feel like all of that extra work for a lead magnet is worth the outcome for people?

[KALI] (42:26):

I think if you’re intentional about it, then it absolutely can be. So using your example, let’s say that you have this digestive PDF and you then know that’s pretty specific. So you know and maybe you then categorize in your newsletter audience, okay, all the people who’ve signed up for this are going to go into their own list in my newsletter software. They’re clearly interested in digestive health. So I am going to then know that whatever future marketing content that’s going via email to people specifically this list is going to maybe be more targeted in that way. And maybe that then relates to something that you can reach out to them and say, “Hey, we’re having a special on this and it’s related to that.” So it’s for you to think about how do you want to use that knowledge of what those people are interested in, why they signed up in the first place, to then moving forward, reconnect with them and re-engage them and hopefully turn them into clients.

[MICHELLE] (43:28):

I love that. Because I feel like once you get those people on your list, it is a huge opportunity. Then you can keep marketing to them in whatever way feels good and aligned through your email newsletter.

[KALI] (43:43):

Yes, absolutely. And I think especially if you are able, and this takes a little time, so I always am telling people like, this can be phase two of whatever you’re doing. If you’re just yeah, trying to get the site up and running, like put a pin in this, it’s okay. But you can really categorize, like I said, the people who are coming into your list, if you have a blog, let’s say you wrote about cupping for example, you have another one that’s an opt-in for that you have a little PDF about cupping or something and then you can categorize people in the backend of your newsletter software related to that. So you can get pretty in-depth about it and if you’re really thoughtful and intentional, you can figure out, okay, I’m going to send a certain amount of information. Or maybe again, it’s like related to a seasonal thing, like seasonally I’m sending out more information here, I’m targeting this particular type of customer and then down the road I’m targeting this particular customer. And so if you’re thoughtful about it, you can figure out who is actually signed up and then what do you want to do with those people? Like how do you want to reach out to them and engage them?

[MICHELLE] (44:46):

Well, thank you so much for all of this. Do you feel like there’s anything else obvious that I missed? I’ve been trying to think of what are all the questions that the audience might have on this topic? Is there anything major that comes to mind?

[KALI] (45:00):

I think sometimes it’s the simplest thing that’s also the hardest thing that’s also the most effective thing. And I know we even talked about this a lot the last time we chatted and we touched on it a bit again here. But I do think that branding is really important and that the copy in your voice, the photos that you’re really connecting with who you want to attract because they are going to feel that and they’re going to feel like they’re the right fit. I have a client, for example, we redid her site recently as she has grown and changed in her own business and getting more comfortable in her skin, knowing who she really works with. We redesigned her website based on that criteria and she has, her conversion rate has gone up. She told me by 90%.

[MICHELLE] (45:43):

Amazing.

[KALI] (45:44):

And all we did, we didn’t change like where the buttons were. We didn’t do anything crazy that, even those basic things were basically the same. The major things we did were just align that branding with who that target audience was and make it feel like she was really, and really almost like pulling more of her into the site because if she had gotten more comfortable in her skin. Like I said, we could figure out what it is that she wanted to bring into the site sort of visually and even in the copy and everything. So I don’t think that that can be undervalued and in some ways it’s very simple and in other ways it can be a little tricky. That’s where hiring a web designer or a branding person can help you if you need that. But you can totally do it yourself too.

[MICHELLE] (46:25):

I am always a huge fan of doing a trade with local photographers for professional photos of you actually treating real patients who sign paperwork, they’re going to sign a release in your practice because then people get to see you in action. They get to see the person who is the patient and picture themselves there. They get to see the backdrop of your actual office. It’s sort of like the more people can imagine themselves getting a treatment, the less, the fewer worries and doubts that they have. They can put themself into that space and they know in their gut if it’s a yes or a no. I suppose that’s really what branding does for people. It’s sort of a visual and visceral thing that helps them make that decision.

[KALI] (47:14):

Yes, absolutely. It’s like the five stars. There’s sort of something happening on a little bit of an unconscious level that I think we don’t always even pick up on and you can tap into that through those branding elements.

[MICHELLE] (47:26):

Well, thank you so much for being here and letting me pick your brain. I have that one last question for you, which could be the same answer as last time, but maybe it’s changed, it’s been a little over a year. What is your definition of success?

[KALI] (47:40):

I think right now just feeling in my skin and like I am working with that right client like I’m pulling in that right fit so that they feel like I’m really helping them and I feel really aligned with what they’re doing has made me feel very successful. And also I’m trying to not put so much on my plate all the time, which is sort of, it almost seems like the opposite of success maybe in some people’s book, but for me, doing a little bit less is making me feel so much more successful. I think that’s the answer.

[MICHELLE] (48:10):

I love that. Well, thank you.

[KALI] (48:14):

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I was just going to say thank you too. I love chatting with you and I feel like this has been really fun.

[MICHELLE] (48:20):

Absolutely. I will put all of your links in the show notes. Thank you so much.

(48:28):

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