Portrait of Dr. Elie Cole and the text, Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast How to Get More Acupuncture Patients from MDs with Elie Cole, DAOM.

Happy Holidays! Today I’m talking with acupuncturist Ellie Cole about how to get more patient referrals from MDs and other biomedical professionals.

This is the third time I’ve interviewed Elie, and I’m always so grateful for how generous she is with her advice and suggestions on this topic.

This is her area of expertise, after interviewing multiple MDs and teaching her strategy to other acupuncturists for almost a decade.

We really dig in deep and talk about:

  • How to get in front of more MDs
  • What kind of questions are they’re likely to ask once you have the opportunity to speak with them
  • How to answer those questions in a way that makes them decide that they want to send their acupuncture referrals to YOU

Elie has an online class, Chinese Medicine Explained, which is a wonderful, very thorough, step-by-step class that walks you through her process of getting in front of MDs, knowing how to speak to them and getting regular referrals.

And just for listeners of the Acupuncture Marketing School podcast she’s offering a discount code for 15% off the class if you decide you’d like to join her.

The code is NEWYEAR15 and it expires at midnight on December 31st.

At the end of the interview, Elie offers her contact info in case you have any questions at all for her.

All right, let’s get started! Without further ado, Elie Cole.

Show Notes:

🎙️Episode #48: How to Get More Acupuncture Patient Referrals from MDs with Elie Cole

Subscribe to the Acupuncture Marketing School podcast on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, or Spotify

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Transcript:

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (00:04)

Welcome to the Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast. I’m your host, Michelle Grasek, and I’m here to help you get visible in your community, take marketing action with confidence and get more patients in your practice and more money in your pocket every week. We both know you’re a talented, passionate acupuncturist and that acupuncture has the power to change lives. So let’s dive right into this episode and talk about how you can reach more patients.

(00:28)

Hello, hello. Welcome, how are you?

[NELL SMIRCINA] (00:39)

Hi, Michelle. Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here.

[MICHELLE] (00:43)

My pleasure. I am so excited to chat with you today. We have been talking on and off for a long time. Someday I think maybe we’ll get to meet in person, which would be amazing.

[NELL] (00:56)

Someday. I feel like it’s strange that that hasn’t happened, with the amount that we talk and try to coordinate things together, but yes, one day that will be a thing and we will meet in person and not the virtual world.

[MICHELLE] (01:11)

Absolutely. So, before we dive in, I have all sorts of questions for you. I can’t wait. Will you tell the audience, just like all the things that you do in the industry, because you’re a practitioner, you’re also an advocate, I mean, you do so many things, so I’ll let you explain it.

[NELL] (01:31)

Okay, I’m going to put myself on a time limit with this and not read you my CV but I don’t know, to sum it up, it’s like all things integrative acupuncture. My why has always been getting acupuncture into the standard of care, and my career coach will tell me that that needs to be narrowed a little bit because that allows me to say yes to everything in this industry. But I love this industry and there are aspects of it that often get forgotten because we’re trained to be clinicians, which is such a beautiful thing, but there are so many parts of our profession that make it go round, and I love being involved in them. So I’ve worked in the school space, so taught practice management, orthopedics, ethics, I guess lecture a lot. I did my Master’s and Doctorate at Emperors, and then I ran their teaching clinic while I was completing my doctorate, so clinical management side.

(02:26)

I’ve done consulting mostly for herbal companies, some other product-based companies as well, most notably with KPC. That’s how I started with consulting, and then there are some other ones that for NDA reasons can’t disclose, but really enjoy that. So it’s brought me to a lot of the different conferences and trade shows and gotten to meet incredible vendors who help support our industry and our profession from that side of things. I am involved, yeah, as an advocate. So I was the president of CSA, one of the California State Associations, and now serve on the board of ASA, our national association as the Vice Chair of Public Policy. And my day job is working with the American Acupuncture Council, which is the oldest and largest provider of malpractice insurance and I was brought in, I don’t know, it really is more of a consulting role than an employee role. I do some of the trainings with the sales and renewals teams, again, speak at a lot of the conferences that we sponsor, but my technical title is director of development. And really that was just designed to help bridge the gap between what’s going on in the profession and what’s going on in the malpractice industry and with our policies. I do maintain a private practice in the midst of all that.

[MICHELLE] (03:51)

I thought so.

[NELL] (03:52)

Yeah. I’ve had to hire practitioners and that was always the goal for me. I wanted to build a practice that allowed me to make space for all of these other things in our industry and provide opportunities for other providers who weren’t interested in business and wanted to use their clinical skills for the betterment of the patient experience. Still currently doing that and I go back to California about once a month to treat my core people who are really on maintenance right now. Some of them will see my other practitioners and some of them are like, hey, I’m healthy, I’ll see you when you come here, and I’m good with that. So I think that’s all the things I do in the industry.

[MICHELLE] (04:39)

Amazing. My next question naturally has to be how do you keep all of that organized?

[NELL] (04:47)

So my coach, one, and I’m a big believer in coaching. I know you do coaching as well. So for your listeners, anybody who ever wants to know resources, I’m such an open book. I do think having coaches is important and I’ve had coaches for different things, some more entrepreneurial, some more business focused, some just self-growth, but one of my coaches told me if you have more than three priorities, you don’t have any priorities.

[MICHELLE] (05:23)

I love that.

[NELL] (05:24)

That’s challenging for me because this is the same coach that was telling me that you can’t just say your why is getting acupuncture into the standard of care because then you say yes to everything. I told him on my first day of working together you’re going to have to call me on stuff because I can justify why all of this is very important. So with that, it’s just a hierarchy of things like, where can I add the most value? That for me becomes a decision-making framework. Also, where do I get the most intrinsic value? So what do I really love? I always say there are people who are way better clinicians than I am, like acupuncturists who can put one needle in and change your entire life, and that’s not me. Like I have been successful in practice because I understand what drives people, what motivates people. I can effectively communicate with patients in a way that allows them to feel seen and heard and well educated with their treatment.

(06:25)

So that’s my skillset, and I get a lot of intrinsic value from utilizing what I’m good at and what I feel like I’m gifted at. That’s why clinical practice for me has taken a little bit of a backseat to building out opportunities for other providers. For me, I have to look at what feels valuable, where can I add the most value, like where is is my skillset, something that might be missing in the industry or that we don’t have enough of? I think you do a great job at that too, like filling that gap, that white space. And then I use Google Calendar for everything in life, my life is designed through Google, and then I also have a backup paper planner. I have some weird productivity hacks that I use, designing my 24-hour day into three days so that I get the most done.

[MICHELLE] (07:23)

Interesting.

[NELL] (07:24)

Just little things like that, but looking first and foremost at where can I add the most value and feel like it’s valuable and start there with that decision-making framework.

[MICHELLE] (07:38)

I love that. Sometimes I think when we are, I often think of it from the angle of like, building our businesses as entrepreneurs, but even just building a career, we’re so focused on the end goal or the outcome or a monetary number or other arbitrary numbers and we’re not taking enough time to ask ourselves what is the most valuable to us like, what feeds us as we give back to other people? I ultimately think that’s how you avoid burnout, is sort of evaluating your career from that perspective, from the value that you give and the value that you get and then having a nice balance of both. But it’s hard and it takes time. It’s to know the answer.

[NELL] (08:29)

Yeah, it’s not an easy thing, Michelle. It took me a long time, and I say like a long time, it’s not really a long time. It felt like a long time for me to get to a place where I felt really comfortable saying like, my zone of geniuses not being a clinician. And that’s hard because I did pre-med in undergrad, like I did this four-year master’s program in California and then a two-year doctorate on top of that, and when I graduated everybody’s like, well, why in the world would you put in all this time and effort and then not want to practice full-time? Like, that must be the goal. For me it was always no, how do I figure out how to support myself, support my family, support my lifestyle but still leave space for this advocacy work, for like all of the things where I know I can really add value.

(09:24)

That felt very controversial not that long ago and now so many more people are doing it. So many people are looking for additional ways to add value to be a part of this profession. People are wanting jobs more than private practice. They’re looking at different opportunities. They’re doing podcasts and helping to educate people in this way, but it was really that idea of like, okay, like, how do I be true to myself and be honest with myself that this is really what I want? And it was the same thing. I recently started an MBA program and people were like, great, like, another thing to add to your list. But that’s made me such a more effective leader. It’s allowed me to add value to patients. Like I can more effectively communicate, I can more effectively strategize. It allows me to coach practitioners on like statistics they should be looking at in their practice and like, how do we set up sustainable practices for you as a business owner, for you as a productive contributing member of society. So it was another thing that, yes, there’s a time thing on that and effort that has to be put in, but I felt like the intrinsic value was there, and it was going to allow me to be more authentically myself, enhance my skillset, and of course, be able to help more people in the process.

[MICHELLE] (10:51)

I think that we as a profession are s slowly approaching this idea that just because you went to acupuncture school does not mean you have to practice and that feels really controversial to say. So I, and I had a very similar experience to you, and I don’t know if we’ve ever talked about this, maybe we have, but I mean, when I graduated from acupuncture school, I studied abroad in England at the University of York in their research program for acupuncture, and I ended up dropping out because I was like, oh, this isn’t really what I want to do. So I went home and opened my practice but part of me always knew that my strength was not as a clinician. The way that I think about or thought about it at that time was like I deeply, deeply love acupuncture and East Asian medicine and the wisdom that is in it and once you learn it, you cannot unlearn it. I mean, that’s my personal opinion, especially if you commit to living it and that has had a huge impact on my life and the life of everyone that I touch. But that doesn’t mean that I have to be a full-time clinician in order to share the medicine or to be considered successful. When I graduated in 2010 with my acupuncture Masters, like the path was private practice and anything outside of that was considered sort of an anomaly and like are you sure?

(12:28)

And as you said, like you just got this degree and you paid money for it, and you, I feel very lucky that we are trained in specific skills that make us money. It’s almost like going to a trade school in that sense. So that is wonderful. The outcome of that, naturally, people are like, okay, so now you’re going to do the thing full-time and that will be the rest of your life. So, I don’t know, I just want to, nobody needs my permission for anything ever, but just give people permission who are listening that if you feel like you have other things you want to pursue in the profession outside of practice full-time or part-time or whatever it’s valid. There’s so many layers to our profession where we can contribute and I hope that we can all like, release the, I felt shame in the beginning, the shame of feeling like, wow, I do have this degree, and I know I’m not meant to be like a, I’m not meant to be in clinic all the time. Do you know what I mean? I have to have other pursuits, other places to put my energy. So it’s nice to hear you say that.

[NELL] (13:41)

No, it’s so, what opened up that mentally for me was the consulting and going to different conferences and trade shows where I met vendors, like people who had never been clinicians before, but were filling a very necessary place in this profession to provide us with the supplies, the tools that we need to give us good quality herbs. Some of these vendors, these companies are founded by people who are clinicians as well. So to your point, there are opportunities out there. I think I want to move the needle in healthcare in general, and if I didn’t have the understanding that I have of this profession and the gaps that we can fill, I wouldn’t be effective, as effective in that. My clinical specialty is post-surgical care, and that is such a critical gap in care that’s happening. But if I hadn’t been practicing that, if I hadn’t done my doctoral research in that area, it would be a very different conversation when I go and speak to a surgeon about bringing an acupuncturist into their practice. Like, how would I effectively do that and move the needle in integrative care without that experience?

(15:02)

So yeah, again, nobody needs our permission, but like, please take it. Take our experience and know that there, there’s someone out there who, who sees you, who gets you. If you have this inkling of an idea, if you have something you want to try, if you’re like, hey, all right, zone of excellence. I talk about these zones a lot because the big leap is such a great book and it’s very clarifying and it’s referenced in a lot of other books. But this idea of zone of excellence being what you’re trained in and you’re good at that most other people can’t do, but zone of genius, like being where you’re absolutely meant to be and not getting stuck in zone of excellence because there is that additional level. So if anybody’s feeling that inkling, like, I want to try something, reach out to me. I love hearing about new crazy awesome ideas and helping people think through that.

[MICHELLE] (16:03)

I love the the idea that you pointed out of using your education and experience in East Asian Medicine as a foundation for so many other just beautiful, creative, important, necessary things in our profession and outside of it. I mean, I would never, I would never change my career path. There’s this classic concept that I think people do less and less lately of having like a specific career trajectory where you’re in the same job or position and you’re moving from like one thing to the next and it’s very linear. People are doing that less. But I also think that the variety of experience you have really adds richness and depth to what you can provide for other people and that’s irreplaceable. That just comes from the experience of being like, well, I tried this out, it wasn’t for me. I tried this out and it totally was for me, to know what it feels like to pursue the zone of genius versus the zone of excellence.

[NELL] (17:17)

Yeah. Or even like the, just the mindset like that Tony Robbins quote where he is like switching why is this happening to me, to, like, it’s happening for me. Then like if you are excited and you are motivated, and you are looking at all these possibilities, like there’s no need for the regret because every one of those experiences has helped bring you to where you are and the person that you are and those collective experiences matter. They matter even if we don’t see it it right away how is this going to connect. Even the idea of karma, like it’s not a one-on-one like just because like I’m kind to this person doesn’t mean that they’re going to be kind back to me, but that will come down the road. So it’s the same thing with our experiences. We might not know right now how this is going to play out, or the meaning that it’s going to have long-term, but it’s there and it’s adding.

[MICHELLE] (18:12)

Yeah. I’m curious if you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert. I ask a lot of my guests this question.

[NELL] (18:20)

I am an introvert and nobody who knows me outside of my household would agree with you on that.

[MICHELLE] (18:29)

It’s a spectrum, right?

[NELL] (18:31)

Yes, but I’ve worked really hard to develop skills to work with that. I think a lot of times with introverted extrovert it ends up being like, how do you recharge rather than how do you necessarily show up in your day-to-day life? Like one of my favorite things to do is networking so people are like, how could you be an introvert and I’m like, well, really, my favorite thing to do is get a cup of coffee by myself and then maybe watch an episode of Grey’s Anatomy and just have some me time. But I get fueled by the idea of networking because I get fueled by the idea of adding value and how can I have meaningful connection, how can I learn constantly from other people? That also does take energy out as well. So just because you can be present and utilize a skillset doesn’t mean that afterwards you’re not like, whew, I could really use that glass of wine or that margarita and an episode of Grace.

[MICHELLE] (19:40)

And do you feel like networking ever ends? Like is there an end point or, what is your approach?

[NELL] (19:52)

It’s not, it is never ending. But I really encourage people to have a certain mindset when it comes to networking. because I think just like marketing, like you say a lot those stigmas around marketing and people’s initial visceral response to it, particularly in an industry that is so focused on helping people. But that’s the mindset shift with networking that I think needs to happen because so many times people hear networking and they’re like, oh, you’re out there trying to figure out how can people do X, Y, and Z for me? Like, what’s in it for me? Absolutely not. Networking first and foremost, like I have a course that’s very focused on networking and the biggest thing I’m like, if you have one takeaway from this, it’s that the objective for networking is figuring out how you can provide value for somebody that you meet.

[MICHELLE] (20:41)

Yes.

[NELL] (20:42)

First and foremost, like, how do I provide value for this person? That might, again, not be in a one-to-one linear structure. It’s not going to be necessarily a give and take, but if you let go of this thought process of, oh, I have to get something out of this, no, what can I give? Okay, I meet somebody who’s a real estate agent. Oh, I’ve read this recent article about something that might be of interest to them. Send it to them within 24 hours of meeting them. You have a patient who’s looking for a house? I might not be house shopping, but now I know a real estate agent who was wonderful and gracious, and I like, and I can send them a patient. The patient feels like, oh, thank God you solved a problem for me. I was stressing about this and you gave me this referral and that real estate agent, you might just like, wow, that is so kind of this person. They went out of their way to refer somebody to me. So if you’re not thinking about like, oh, what can I get from them and your thought is, how can I add value to this person in this person’s life, that will come back to you, and you don’t have to worry about the taking piece of it. And that feels so much more natural and exciting for people in our industry if you reframe your mindset around networking in that way.

[MICHELLE] (22:00)

Yes, I completely agree. So my audience knows I am a mega introvert, and I think I also have had a class in the past about like networking for introverts, like tips on basically making it less painful. Then of course, during Covid, there was no networking for a while and then since everything opened up again, I have been going regularly to networking meetings in my community and a community maybe like 30 minutes away. So I’m a member of these two groups, and at first I would just dread every meeting, would be really stressed and think about like, all of the ways I could get out of this meeting, like, oh, I’m pretty sure I have to go home and feed my cat. Tonight, I can’t go to that networking meeting or whatever it was.

(22:50)

But what I have learned is that networking is just about community. So it’s exactly what you’re saying, it’s not about, there’s always going to be people who feel like they have a sales pitch at those networking meetings, but you’re also going to see a lot of people over and over again who are just happy to see you because they are like, “Oh, hey, it’s you again. It was nice to talk to you last month.” So you’re building relationships. And then as you’re saying, you can refer people to them, they can refer people to you, but that’s almost secondary. It’s about showing up and about the support and I find that the more regularly I go to these meetings, of course, the better people know me and they really just surprise me and show up and support me in ways that I didn’t anticipate like people visiting my office.

(23:47)

My office is not in like a walkable area of town so I get almost no, like unexpected foot traffic. But had some people from the Chamber of Commerce visit me recently, and it was such a pleasure to give them an office tour. I was like, I can’t believe you cared enough to come here and they were like, yeah, we’re actually not that far away from you and we realized it, and we just wanted to come say hi. You’re building a community and you can show up for them and support them when you have the opportunity and they’ll do the same for you. And for me as that mega introvert has taken such an edge off as well as, you mentioned this, reducing the expectation, just going into it as yourself, without those expectations that I have to get a certain number of patients, referrals in this timeframe, or I’m not going to go anymore, or it wasn’t worth my time. When I think about I’m more or less making friends with other small business owners then right, that’s, it’s just a beautiful thing.

[NELL] (24:52)

It’s like people who are going through similar things that you’re going through. This can be a very isolating profession. Like most acupuncturists are sole proprietors. It’s not like everybody’s working at a hospital or an integrated group, or they have five acupuncturists on staff. So when you have opportunities for community, you want to take advantage of them. And that’s, I think that’s a responsibility because it’s also like part of my reframing, like how people are advocate, like when I talk about advocacy, yes, you can go to a congressional fly-in and hope everybody comes to ASA conference in May and shows up and talks to our leaders and helps promote our profession. But being a kind, professional, proficient practitioner on a daily basis also makes you an advocate. When you are a provider in your office and you are doing right by your patients, and they turn into people who tell other people how well this medicine works and how great their acupuncturist is, that makes you an advocate. That’s like the advocacy for introverts. People are like, I only want to talk to like one person at a time. Well, you can do that and you can still help this profession and you can still change hearts and minds and allow people to see what this profession is really about and how it can add value to their lives.

[MICHELLE] (26:25)

Sometimes you talk about the responsibility of confidence, and I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about that.

[NELL] (26:32)

Yeah. Hey, confidence is another one of those words that falls into the like, oh, no, I don’t want to be cocky, I don’t want to be self-promoting. Yeah, it’s your responsibility. There’s a lot of research on confidence and how people respond to more confident people. They perceive them as more competent. They are more trusting of what that person has to say when they’re more confident. So even if you’re talking about direct patient care, how critical is that? How critical is it when you have someone who has never had acupuncture before, who is taking a chance to let you stick needles in them and trusting you with their health? They want to feel like they’re in the hands of somebody who is competent and when you are confident, they’re going to hear your treatment plan better, they’re going to be more likely to respond to those things that you were recommending to them.

(27:30)

I was listening to your podcast with Elie Cole, and she was saying that you don’t really have to do a lot. Like, you just need to show them that they can be helped. When people show up, if you’re like a new practitioner, you are insecure about this whole idea that, oh my gosh, I just got out of school. Like, I’m not an expert. Like I’ve seen people who have been licensed for 25 years, and that’s not me, but you are an expert compared to that patient sitting in front of you. Even if you just got out of school, even if you’re in the middle of school, you know way more about this medicine than they do. It’s important to be able to articulate that so that they can get the value that you have to offer. So if we’re not believing in ourselves and we can’t effectively articulate our message and our value, then people are going to miss out on that. So that’s why I think it’s absolutely your responsibility to cultivate that confidence.

[MICHELLE] (28:30)

I have definitely seen the progression of this in my practice in my 12 years. I remember in the beginning feeling extremely nervous to tell patients what to do. I just had a really, really hard time. But that leads to sort of a wishy-washy, uncertain conversation where now the patient is not sure what they should do and then, so they obviously, they don’t take your advice and then they don’t feel that much better during the week, and then they come back and nobody’s sure why they’re not feeling better. So eventually I realized that people do, in this context of healthcare, want to be told what to do. And that doesn’t mean that we are expecting anybody to just follow blindly. It doesn’t mean they can’t ask questions, but they really want someone with that authority and the experience like, oh yes, I’ve treated people with migraines or whatever it is before, and this is what you should do or avoid.

(29:35)

They want to hear that with confidence so that they can at least process it and give it a try or decide if they’re going to try it. But if you don’t say it with confidence, it’s so, like you’re saying, it’s so easy to feel uncertain and dismiss it. So it took me a long time to understand that confidence can be cultivated and it’s not just experience but practice. Because you certainly gain confidence through experience over time as a practitioner, but if you are newer or confidence is something that you struggle with, I do think that there are ways that you can actually build your confidence faster. Do you have suggestions for that?

[NELL] (30:20)

I’ll give you an, yeah, I do. Because you hear a lot in the world right now, like about imposter syndrome, and oh my gosh, why are people coming to me for help, I need help myself. But some of the most successful people out there suffer from imposter syndrome. I hate when it’s like, oh, okay, yeah, well just be more confident.

[MICHELLE] (30:46)

But how?

[NELL] (30:47)

Flex that muscle like everything else? Like, exactly, give me the how. Again, a coach taught me this, and it’s been really impactful for me. You can do very little confidence exercises by keeping the promises that we make to ourselves. So a lot of times people think like, oh, well, I’m not confident when it comes to having a conversation about a treatment plan. So like, that’s the only way to cultivate that confidence. Absolutely. If you practice it more on the more patients you have, you’re going to feel more proficient. Practice with your friends, great, but you as an individual need to cultivate confidence. So the way that you do that with keeping promises that you make to yourself can literally be as simple as accomplishing a to-do list and making the to-do list as accomplishable as possible, is that word.

[MICHELLE] (31:34)

Yeah, I think that’s important.

[NELL] (31:35)

Rather than putting 15 things on there, let’s say I have my top five for the day, I have my top three for the day, and then I accomplish those things. I have reinforced myself that I can trust myself. If I say I am going to work out three times this week, and then I get those three workouts in, at the end of the week, I can say to myself, oh, I can trust myself to follow through on these things. There’s research on this actually builds confidence. So thinking about those little exercises that you can do, like things you’re already doing, you’re already doing your to-do list, you’re already making your goals for the week. This helps you follow through on them, and then you can come out the other side as a more confident individual.

[MICHELLE] (32:17)

I love that there’s research behind that. I didn’t realize that and I’m so curious if anybody else does this. If I am having a day where I’m like not getting anything done on my list, I will add things that I’ve already done that are basic, like shower, check it off, yep, I did that.

[NELL] (32:35)

I love it.

[MICHELLE] (32:36)

I made it to work, I packed my lunch, Check, check, check, check.

[NELL] (32:40)

You’re like, I didn’t have a list on my list before. I’d better put it on there.

[MICHELLE] (32:44)

But in a strange way, it helps me sort of dial back my list anxiety by saying, yep, okay, there are plenty of other things that I have accomplished because I’ve made them into habits over time with effort and so it’s like I have a baseline that I am meeting every day, which sometimes I get really proud when I think about that because I can be, I just get excited about all of the projects and all of the possibilities. So having a consistent routine where I focus is really helpful and an accomplishment. And it takes time to build that and make it into a habit where you don’t have to think about it anymore.

[NELL] (33:29)

I love that you say you get really excited, like that’s a reframe, like, people go, I’m disorganized, or I have shiny object syndrome, or, and I’m like, no, there are a lot of really exciting things out there. Another thing one of my coaches told me is being an entrepreneur is saying no to a lot of really great ideas. And it’s so true. There are exciting things out there for us for this medicine, like the possibilities are literally endless and we’ve entered a profession where you get to learn every single day. But there is not a single day where you can’t learn something, whether it’s from a patient, whether it’s from the industry, whether it’s from, oh my gosh, what is going on in healthcare in general. There’s just so much that can be learned and so if you’re in it, you’re never going to be bored. You’re going to be constantly excited and that’s a good problem to have. Yes, it is.

[MICHELLE] (34:21)

I think that most of the people that I’ve talked to who, most acupuncturists are at least in part in this profession, and they love it because they get to be learning constantly. I know I mentioned that I’m not built to be in clinic every single day, but I will say that I do love my time in clinic and one of the reasons is because I love to learn. I love to learn about not just health and wellness and other people and psychology and what makes this tick, but like how you roll it all together into what it means to be a human. I know I’m getting really deep with this, but that is clinic and human experience.

[NELL] (35:04)

Yeah, it’s endlessly fascinating. You get more fascinated.

[MICHELLE] (35:08)

Yes, and you get the privilege to experience someone else’s portion of the human experience and walk that path with them. So I think it’s super humbling, of course, but that is a lifelong education. That’ll be up until the moment that we die. I think that’s amazing. I’m glad we’re both so excited about our profession. I hope we’re inspiring people to maybe think about all of the million ways that they can contribute to this beautiful industry.

[NELL] (35:40)

Yeah, it is a beautiful industry. It’s an exciting time and people are more interested in ways that they can improve their health. People are more interested in the idea of integrative health, the idea of a health team. There’s a lot of really beautiful things that have happened in a very challenging time the last few years. You see beautiful things come out of pressure and so I think it’s a great time for our profession. We can add so much value. So exciting like, which area do I dive into? So very exciting.

[MICHELLE] (36:23)

I always like to end the interview on this question, what is your definition of success?

[NELL] (36:30)

Okay, I’m stealing it from someone, but it just resonated with me so much, definition of success is when your vision for your life matches the reality. The example that was given was, Ed Mylet, he does a lot of motivational speaking and he’s worked with, he lived down the street from Tony Robbins. That’s how he got into the motivational circuit. He used to work in finance, but his sister is a school teacher and he makes millions of dollars and lives next to Tony Robbins and he said, who am I to say what someone’s vision of success should be? My sister makes $30,000 a year and she teaches, I think third graders. He is like, she is literally the happiest person I know and that’s exactly what she wanted to do. And her vision, she’s living it every single day and he’s like, and I have a different vision and I’m living that every single day.

(37:24)

So I think we get sometimes stuck in this construct of this is what success needs to be and I need to live here or make this my, no, it actually needs to make sense for you and have really some key things that fit into that, whether it’s, I like freedom of location, I want the ability to provide for my family. Like, I have a very clear vision of what I want my life to look like and so I think everyone has that right to look and say, what do I want my life to look like and when life is matching what that vision is, and at least is headed in the right to direction, that is certainly success.

[MICHELLE] (38:06)

Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Where can everybody find you online and follow you? I know that you have some online classes. Feel free to share those with the audience.

[NELL] (38:20)

Absolutely. Again, I’m in all the things, but easiest way is just through my website drnell.com. I am also happy to again, talk you guys through your awesome ideas that you’re cultivating when it comes to the profession. So I can be reached there. I’ll feel a little pressured. I’m going to give out my phone number because somebody else gave out theirs and I was like, that was really kind.

[MICHELLE] (38:46)

Kind or brave?

[NELL] (38:48)

Yeah, so I have a spam blocker, but I love chatting with people and I do like a 15-minute discovery call if anybody’s interested in coaching, we can talk through some stuff. I also gave a discount for your listeners specifically, so I think that’ll be in there. I think it’s AMS for Acupuncture Marketing School 2023 for my business school with acupuncture, for acupuncturist courses. Really, I just want everybody to be able to embody that vision of success, whatever that looks like. And just like our medicine is so customized, life is so customized and success is so customized to each one of us. So if there’s anything I can do to help anybody who’s listening, please go ahead. Michelle, you can feel free to put all of my info in the comments so anyone can reach out to me

[MICHELLE] (39:41)

Absolutely. I cut you off when you were sharing your phone number.

[NELL] (39:45)

Yes, (718) 640-8322.

[MICHELLE] (39:49)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I think everything that you offer our profession is really generous and I’m so inspired by you. I love hearing about your projects and I can’t wait to see all the amazing things that you do in the future. Thank you for being here.

[NELL] (40:07)

Thank you for having me, Michelle. I think you’re just such a value add for our profession and filling a need that I didn’t see anybody else filling and I’m so happy that we’ve gotten connected in the virtual world and excited to continue work and collaboration together. So thanks so much for having me today.

[MICHELLE] (40:28)

Thank you.