Portrait of acupuncturist Gudrun Snyder with the text, "Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast Episode #69: Leadership, Patient Memberships, and Expanding to Two Locations with Gudrun Snyder."

Today I’m talking with Gudrun Snyder, owner of Moon Rabbit Acupuncture in Chicago.

She initially opened her doors in 2020 and made over $200,000 in her first year of practice. Yes, in a pandemic.

She has been featured on Business Insider, which is where I discovered her, as well as Forbes, Instyle, NBC Chicago, WGN Chicago, Web MD, Shape, Bustle, CBS Radio, Real Simple, and more.

In this episode, we talk about:

  • Gudrun’s journey of opening and expanding her acupuncture practice in Chicago
  • How a membership model has helped build her practice
  • Creating a supportive work environment and allowing team members to practice in a way that suits their strengths
  • The challenges of marketing and generating patients for multiple locations
  • Investing in public relations and social media management and bargaining for these services if you can’t afford them
  • What marketing has worked to build her practices, and what fell flat
  • And much more

Gudrun is making waves and not afraid to get visible on a local and national level to shine a positive light on our profession.

She shares so many insights today about leadership and building a brand. I hope you enjoy this episode!

Show Notes:

🎙️ Listen to Episode #69: Leadership, Patient Memberships, and Expanding to Two Locations with Gudrun Snyder

💙 This episode is sponsored by ​Jane,​ the HIPAA-compliant all-in-one practice management software.

Your time is valuable. Jane has designed Online Intake Forms to reduce admin work so you can take back your treatment time.

Whether you need to collect insurance information, health history, or consents, Jane’s Online Intake Forms offer a safe and secure way to gather everything before your patients walk through the door.

You can also collect payment details securely through your intake form, via Jane’s PCI-compliant payment solution, saving time at checkout.

To learn more about how Jane’s intake forms can help, head to ​jane.app/guide​ to book a 1-on-1 demo with a member of their team. If you’re ready to get started, use the code ACUSCHOOL1MO at sign-up to get a 1-month grace period applied to your new account.

Subscribe to the Acupuncture Marketing School podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

 💖 Love the podcast? Help other acupuncturists find the podcast by leaving a review here.

Transcript:

[MICHELLE GRASEK] (00:05):

Welcome to the Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast. I’m your host, Michelle Grasek, and I’m here to help you get visible in your community, take marketing action with confidence and get more patients in your practice and more money in your pocket every week. We both know you’re a talented, passionate acupuncturist and that acupuncture has the power to change lives. So let’s dive right into this episode and talk about how you can reach more patients.

(00:33):

Welcome back. Today I’m talking with Gudrun Snyder, owner of Moon Rabbit Acupuncture in Chicago. She initially opened her doors in 2020 and made over $200,000 in her first year in practice. Yes, in a pandemic. She has been featured on Business Insider, which is where I discovered her, as well as Forbes, Instyle, NBC Chicago, WGN Chicago, WebMD, Shape, Bustle, CBS Radio, Real Simple, and many more. In this episode, Gudrun and I talk about her journey of opening and expanding her acupuncture practice in Chicago, how a membership model has helped her build her practice, creating supportive work environments, and allowing team members to practice in a way that suits their strengths, the challenges of marketing and generating patients from multiple locations, investing in public relations and social media management, and bargaining for these services, if you can’t afford them, what marketing has worked to build her practices and what has fallen flat and much more. Gudrun is making waves and not afraid to get visible on a local and national level to shine a positive light on our profession. She shares so many insights today about leadership and building a brand. I really hope you enjoy this episode.

[JANE.APP] (01:52):

Today’s episode is sponsored by Jane. Many of you are familiar with the name, but if it’s new to you, Jane is a HIPAA-compliant all-in-one practice management software. The team at Jane knows your time is valuable and they’ve designed online intake forms to help you reduce admin work so that you can take back your treatment time. Whether you need to collect patient insurance, policy information, their health history, or consent forms, Jane’s online intake forms offer a safe and secure way to gather everything you need before your patients walk through your door. You can also collect payment details securely through your intake form via Jane’s PCI-compliant payment Solution, saving your patients’ time at checkout. To learn more about how Jane’s intake forms can help head to Jane.app/guide to book a one-on-one demo with a member of their team. And if you’re ready to get started, you can use the ACUSCHOOL1MO at the time of sign up to get a one month grace period applied to your new account. And I’ll put the link and the special code in the show notes to make it easy for you.

[MICHELLE] (03:01):

All right, let’s dive into this conversation with Gudrun. Hello Gudrun. How are you?

[GUDRUN SNYDER] (03:07):

I’m so good. How are you doing today?

[MICHELLE] (03:10):

I am good. Thank you so much for being here. I am incredibly excited to talk to you about all the different things that you have going on, in particular, your very successful acupuncture practices, which is now plural. You run Moon Rabbit acupuncture in Chicago, and I discovered you through an article on Business Insider that basically said, gosh, what was the title? It was something to the effect that you worked in Hollywood and you quit that job to pursue acupuncture and you made $200,000 in your first year in practice. And I was like, I have got to talk to this woman.

[GUDRUN] (03:47):

I love it.

[MICHELLE] (03:48):

So you opened your practice in 2020, is that right?

[GUDRUN] (03:51):

That’s correct. I opened in June of 2020 in the height of the pandemic. Most places were closed. In Chicagoland we were allowed to be opened because we were considered a medical facility, and so despite all, people and events in the world telling me otherwise, I still opened.

[MICHELLE] (04:10):

I love that. I find that just people in general, but in particular small business owners, we tend to like make up rules in our head where we’re like, well, I can’t be successful because of X, Y, Z? But I feel like if you dive in, most people can find a way.

[GUDRUN] (04:27):

That’s right. You find a way. That’s exactly it. And I think despite it being such a terrible time, like in our world history and so stressful for many people because it was so stressful for many people, they were looking for a safe place to go and take care of their mental and physical health. And so when I look back on it, yes, it was a hard time to open a business, but in many ways it may have helped me get a start because people were really looking for something like Moon Rabbit.

[MICHELLE] (04:54):

Yes. I’m so grateful for the shift in the general population towards self-care and wellness care because everyone felt atrocious physically and mentally for such a long time in the pandemic and they were like, wow, I am unprepared for a crisis. Let’s prepare long-term. And I think acupuncture really fills that space very nicely.

[GUDRUN] (05:13):

Well said. I completely agree. I think there has been a significant shift since the pandemic from retroactive care, like, oh no, now I’m really sick. Got to do something to like, let’s be proactive and like stay well and be well.

[MICHELLE] (05:26):

Yes. I love that. And I remember in your article you mentioned that you had been in business for like a month and you had to hire someone, is that right?

[GUDRUN] (05:35):

So, gosh, it was about a month into it. At the time I was front desk, I was washing the floors, I was the acupuncturist, I was doing laundry, I was everything and then all of a sudden I started to get busy and I was like, oh, I can’t do this all myself. And I also wanted to add additional services. I wanted to add other acupuncturists who had different skills than myself. For example, I don’t do herbal formulations, so I wanted someone who’s a real herbal expert. I also wanted a massage therapist because the power of touch is so strong, and I needed a support staff. I really needed front desk administration to really support how busy we were getting.

[MICHELLE] (06:14):

And you do a high volume practice, is that right, like four or five rooms at a time?

[GUDRUN] (06:19):

I personally do, however, I don’t ask my team to do the same. I let my team members choose how they like to practice. I think that when we’re allowed to be our best selves without following someone else’s way of doing things, I think that we practice best. So for example, I do like to see, I like to run four or five rooms myself, but I have acupuncturists who only like to do one or two rooms at a time.

[MICHELLE] (06:42):

I am so happy to hear you say that because I have spoken with so many acupuncturists in the past, gosh, like nine years since I have been in this role where they were hired for an acupuncture job and they just felt like it was eating them alive. They were expected to see so many people and they were just, they didn’t have the right personality and then they’re also not trained properly for it. And that’s so unfortunate because there are so few jobs for acupuncturists. They’re being forced to fit into this mold that doesn’t work for them and then they get burnt out and they’re like, I’m never doing that again. So I think it’s so radical, and I’m hearing other people are also trying to do this where it’s like you’re offering positions that really cater to someone’s strengths because you want to keep them long term. You want to give them a job that they love, like where they feel like part of a team and they don’t feel like, they have the Sunday scaries where they’re like, I cannot go back to work on Monday.

[GUDRUN] (07:42):

Absolutely. I think you hit on a number of things. And now I have to say, to be completely transparent, when I first started I didn’t even realize that. I ended up bringing on another acupuncturist and I thought she would want to work the same way as I did. So I set up her schedule and our scheduling system the same way, and she got burnt out and it was a very big learning moment for me to be like, wait, I would have been happy for her to do it the way she wanted, but I didn’t set her up for success. I didn’t set her up to know that she could say to me, I’m not comfortable doing this much. And I really learned from that experience that the moment people walk in the door, I let them know, like, you tell me what you like and let’s set you up that way, because I know it’s also really hard to ask for things when you’re in a new place too. It’s hard to ask for things. So I’ve really worked on that as a leader to make sure that when someone joins Moon Rabbit, that I ask them their preferences, which is something I didn’t know at the beginning. And then additionally, you also said something about the Sunday scaries. One of the questions I ask in my check-ins with everybody on the team is like, “What’s the feeling you get when you’re driving to work?”

[MICHELLE] (08:48):

Ooh, I love that.

[GUDRUN] (08:49):

“Are you anxious? Are you excited? Are you calm?” Based on what they share with me, we try to fix things or we’re like, “Okay, great, status quo is wonderful. I love that you’re excited to come to work, but it’s not always that way. But it’s so important to want to do what you do. That way you can be the best at it.”

[MICHELLE] (09:08):

Yes, absolutely. And show up for your patients and hold space for them. I feel like those are really tough lessons in leadership to learn on the ground. Of course, when you do learn something like that through experience, you never forget it.

[GUDRUN] (09:24):

That’s right.

[MICHELLE] (09:25):

Did you happen to read Radical Candor?

[GUDRUN] (09:28):

No, but I’ve heard of it. Tell me more.

[MICHELLE] (09:30):

So I feel like a lot of the things you were talking about in the feedback that you’re asking from your team are what she discusses in Radical Candor. Of course, I can’t remember the author’s name, it’s Jen something, but I will definitely put a link in the show notes for everyone. But her whole approach is cultivating a workspace where people can respectfully provide constructive criticism and it takes talking about it all the time. Like the boss has to really work to convince the employees, like, this is a safe space for you to give me feedback and to tell me I’m not comfortable working like this. I’m not at my best, and this would be better. But it’s sort of like this ongoing effort on the part of the leader to get people into that space and like build that company culture. So it sounds like that is what you are inherently doing without even reading her book.

[GUDRUN] (10:26):

Well, I absolutely have to because I’m still working on it. I know one of the things that when I’ve checked in with my team, they were like, we need you more physically present with us. Which means like, now that I have multiple locations, it’s hard to do, I can’t copy myself. But as you said, taking the time and doing it consistently, so it’s not just once a year I’m doing this check-in, I have to be doing this often, and making the space and creating those conversations so that people don’t feel like they’re bothering me. Or I don’t have time. It is so important to make time for these people because they’re the people that like, make dreams come true.

[MICHELLE] (11:03):

I feel like historically being an employee really meant that you could not offer very much criticism or feedback or even like, have different opinions than the people who were above you that you reported to. And I am so happy to see this big shift in, at least I’ve been noticing it in the past like three to four years. Maybe it’s been going on much longer, but it’s also been a long time since I worked in corporate, but the idea where people are allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions and they’re allowed to mention them without being worried that they’re going to lose their job. Because I’ve definitely worked places where you knew if you disagreed with so and so about this important thing, like you really put yourself on the line and it was just better to be quiet. But that doesn’t make for a great organization. It doesn’t invite any change or inspiration. It’s just like you go to work, you do your drudgery and then you go home.

[GUDRUN] (12:01):

Absolutely. And I agree. I think across the board, a lot of organizations and companies are trying to change that. The world is a different place than it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And even in acupuncture, a lot of us became acupuncturists because we felt trapped in another career, in another space and we wanted to have the freedom to practice. So it’s so important as we as acupuncturists and as leaders in our own practices remember that, even though it’s so, it is much easier to just do the thing that feels comfortable to you, versus hearing the hard things, making the hard changes. But without making those hard changes, it filters into everything and then our patients will feel it. And you never want that.

[MICHELLE] (12:44):

Right, yes. I have my first associate acupuncturist and I find it difficult to even remind her sometimes that she has this autonomy because she’s technically an independent contractor. But we’ve talked about like, oh, there don’t seem to be very many morning patients and she’s an evening person. She’d love to work until seven. If you want to work noon to seven, that is a huge chunk of time in the day. Like, that’s a shift. That sounds great. Like, if you want to make that transition, we should do that because I don’t want you to be totally burnt out, and she has a family. And so, I don’t know, sometimes even I get trapped in that fear of like, does she really know? She can tell me the truth, that sort of thing? But it is so important because, and I mean I’m sure you feel this way as well, she’s just so talented, and she just deserves to have all of these patients and the patients deserve her. You know what, it’s like a beautiful circle. I’m like, let’s, whatever works for you, we can just funnel patients into those time slots. Like the people who are right for you will be able to come or they’ll make the effort.

[GUDRUN] (13:48):

That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. I think that’s, again, really well said, because one of the things that you do when you enable them to be their best selves in a way that fits their preferences is then it just brings so much good energy to them. And you want them to showcase their talents. That’s why you’re working with them, because you’re impressed and proud and like thankful for who they are. Yes.

[MICHELLE] (14:10):

Absolutely. So gosh, I think the article said that initially you had, was it four acupuncturists and three front desk staff and three office managers? But you must have, what do your two businesses look like and all of your people?

[GUDRUN] (14:25):

Yes, so we have two locations, they are similar but different, the locations. The first location has four treatment rooms, and one of those rooms shares an infrared sauna with the treatment room. Then the second location has five treatment rooms, a separate infrared sauna and shower, and then an event space where we host healing ceremonies, meditations, qigong lessons, things like that, which has been really cool. But given the two locations we’ve had to need more people. So now I think we’re at a total of seven acupuncturists, six massage therapists, six management people. I’ve made, I’ve promoted two of our, one massage therapist and one acupuncturist to be essentially department heads.

[MICHELLE] (15:09):

Oh, cool.

[GUDRUN] (15:10):

They now like are in charge of all the hiring and onboarding and things like that of their respective departments. And then I have the additional four managers. And then probably eight front desk staff.

[MICHELLE] (15:23):

That’s wild. I love it. And are you still, so you were taking insurance and you had a membership program, so is that still true?

[GUDRUN] (15:32):

Yes, we still do both. We still have the membership program. I would say half of our business is private pay, half of it is insurance. I don’t know if the last time we talked. Originally I used a third party system to bill insurance. Now we do it all in-house.

[MICHELLE] (15:46):

Gotcha, well that’s nice.

[GUDRUN] (15:46):

So one of my staff has taken it on. She’s really, I’m just so thankful for her. She’s run with it and she’s so skilled and has changed Moon Rabbit significantly since we all do insurance billing in-house now.

[MICHELLE] (15:58):

Yes, it’s so much more work, but it’s so much more lucrative when it’s in-house. It’s crazy.

[GUDRUN] (16:03):

It really is. And also we just have more control. I felt like we were chasing things through our third party person and weren’t hearing back and now we’re like, we really know what’s going on if we need to submit things or request a resubmit or whatever it might be, we know we have to do it. Before I felt like we just didn’t know what was going on.

[MICHELLE] (16:24):

Gotcha. And what does your membership program look like?

[GUDRUN] (16:28):

So it is a monthly membership. It includes either acupuncture or massage, and then additionally our infrared sauna or a ProStim light, which is like one of those little anti-aging lights. And then you get 10% off all other services and products.

[MICHELLE] (16:42):

Wow.

[GUDRUN] (16:43):

Which is very lucrative. We charge only $140 a month for it. It’s actually way too low, but we want people to be able to afford all of our wonderful services and that’s really the bottom line that we can offer it while still being able to pay our wonderful staff.

[MICHELLE] (16:59):

And I’m always so curious with membership programs, if somebody misses like their October treatment, is it just gone?

[GUDRUN] (17:07):

It’s just gone. It’s something that I’ve really struggled with and we put it in fine print. We make them sign something that you can’t roll it over, you can’t transfer it. People still ask us, and for a long time when it was like just me. I was like, sure, because I had more control, but now that we see so many people and we have such a large staff, just the logistics of a rollover is tough. But we don’t make people pay ongoing, like for example, if they’re like, I can’t come in October, we stop their membership. As long as people are able to be proactive, and if people are like, oh, I forgot to cancel, we also just refund them.

[MICHELLE] (17:43):

And I always feel like as long as you’re really upfront with people and you let them know it doesn’t roll over, if they miss it, sometimes they are acknowledging in their head, oh shoot, I’m not going to make it in October. Like it’s all right, I’ll just eat the cost. And they’re not worried about it. But then as business owners we’re so involved in that, especially as solopreneurs and smaller businesses, we’re like, oh gosh, they must be so stressed they missed October. I’m going to have to give it to them for free. I’ll give them other stuff too. And the reality is they made the decision not to come. Sometimes they forget and sometimes they make the choice.

[GUDRUN] (18:19):

Again, I completely agree with you. As when it was small and it was really just me, I would just let them roll over and things like that and I would notice they hadn’t come in and reach out and make sure they’re okay and offer them things. But you’re right, most people are like, ah, it’s fine and then come in and see us the next month.

[MICHELLE] (18:38):

I think it’s a really hard mindset shift, but someone told me, gosh, it must have been a decade ago at this point, keep your hand out of your patient’s wallet. That you have no idea what their finances are like. You got to let them make their own decisions. Because I liked to be up their butt about it, like, oh, you missed an appointment. Where are you? How are you? What happened? Was there a crisis?

[GUDRUN] (19:00):

That’s right.

[MICHELLE] (19:01):

How can I make it up to you?

[GUDRUN] (19:03):

How can I make it up to you? Yes, all of those things. And it is true when you’re on your own, you’re trying to, because acupuncturists, you don’t become an acupuncturist because you want to be rich. You usually want to become an acupuncturist because you’re called to it or because you’ve had your own experience with its own healing. Goodness. So then when we start having to charge people, it becomes a little uncomfortable. We often don’t want to take our patients’ money. We like want to just give all our goodness away. And that’s something that I’ve really worked on my staff with. For example, “We’re going to raise our prices,” and some of the staff are a little uncomfortable with raising it. And I said, “You need to value what you do. What we do is so valuable and people will spend $150 on a sweatsuit.” They can spend $150 on something that can be truly transformational. And so, and again, as you said, let the patients make the decision. And we don’t have to feel bad about it, which is very, very hard. If we were price gouging and creating this absurd cost of service, that would be different, and trying to sell some magic pill that was going to cure them of all ailments. But that’s not what we’re doing. We are trying to create a living wage for us as people so that we can then be our best selves and serve everyone.

[MICHELLE] (20:26):

I love that. I noticed that recently you were featured on a Chicago morning show on TV for wellness in the New Year, and I am so curious how you managed to land something like that. I feel like lately everyone is talking about media appearances. It seems to be the theme in the past couple episodes and it’s so fascinating to me. How does that come about?

[GUDRUN] (20:51):

So when I first opened, I met up with one of my friends who’s actually a physician. He mentioned he used a PR company for his own practice. I met with that PR company, I was like, “You are way too expensive for me, but let’s talk in six months.” So then six months later rolls around, they follow up with me, and I say, okay, “I’m ready to do something, but I still can’t afford what my friend paid.” And they say, “Alright, we’ll make a deal.” And they gave me less than half cost for what he paid for the same service. And that was only because I asked and I was like, I totally get, if you can’t do it, but here’s what I can pay, and they said, well do it. I have been working with them now for two and a half, three years and they’re the ones who get me in all of the media. They’re the ones who got me the Business Insider article, they’re the ones who got me in WGN. They are the ones who make the contacts with all of the different media outlets.

[MICHELLE] (21:47):

I think that is amazing. And I have done something very similar with Google Ads, retargeting ads, the ones that follow you around the internet. Because I had a company, it was a friend of a friend, so I knew them. They felt like real people to me and I knew that if they gave me a quote I could trust them, but they gave me this astronomical quote and I was like, “Wow, okay, here’s how much I can pay you. Can you do anything with that?” And again, it’s okay if the answer is no, and they were like, “Yeah, you won’t get 4 million views on your acupuncture website. You’ll only get 250,000.” And I was like, “Well, how many —

[GUDRUN] (22:23):

That’s pretty good, right?

[MICHELLE] (22:24):

I was like, “Well, how many patients do you think I need? 250,000 views sounds great.” And it was only because someone had told me, you can negotiate pretty much anything and I’m now, I always tell my marketing clients, if you are approaching anyone for ads or clearly for PR, for any marketing, let them know what you can pay. Sort of like let them come to you and if they don’t want to find someone else.

[GUDRUN] (22:48):

That’s exactly right.

[MICHELLE] (22:51):

So maybe we could talk about some of the other challenges of running two businesses at once. I’m really curious if you are still able to practice while you have all that going on.

[GUDRUN] (23:01):

So I still see patients one day a week at each location. I’m still able to see patients. And I recently someone asked me, as your business grows and if you open more locations, will you always see patients and my answer is, I certainly hope so. My plan is to always be with patients because I think it keeps me authentic and real and it connects me to what Moon Rabbit is, which is really taking care of people, and it’s not just a business. I love the people who I see. I think I would worry about them if I wasn’t able to be the person that they came to see and check in with. But it is interesting, as Moon Rabbit is growing, my role is just so different than it was at first.

[MICHELLE] (23:44):

And how are you generating enough patients for two locations? I know you have your PR company, do you also have someone who takes care of your social media or does other things for you?

[GUDRUN] (23:55):

Yes. Similar to the PR firm, I started out on my own because I was like, okay, I can’t afford anything. I am just going to make it work. And I quickly realized that social media above anything else is the primary way that people find things. So that was the first cost that I was willing to like really go for and one of my friends is a social influencer and she connected me with a reputable social media company called MDPR. It’s run by a woman named Monica Dixon, and Monica just transformed what my social media was to what it is now and I’m just very thankful. Social media is so important and it doesn’t have to be fancy. It just has to get the word out in an authentic way that’s true to who you are and your brand.

[MICHELLE] (24:42):

Yes. So you are not creating those posts, someone else is totally in charge of that?

[GUDRUN] (24:48):

She creates them, she gets my approval when needed. She creates it, she writes the content and then we approve it. We also do send her some of the videos and if there’s something in particular we want her to push, but in general, she really does it all.

[MICHELLE] (25:02):

And so you feel like most of your patients are coming from social media?

[GUDRUN] (25:06):

I think so. I’ve asked them, it’s primarily, it’s word of mouth, it’s social media, nd then it is seeing these media spotlights. For example, when I was on WGN, people, our phone was ringing off the hook afterwards.

[MICHELLE] (25:19):

I can’t imagine. And do you feel like it’s more Instagram than Facebook or is there another platform?

[GUDRUN] (25:26):

I wish I did TikTok. That’s one of my 2024 goals because I do think a lot of people right now utilize TikTok to find services, products, et cetera. So that is our next foray into marketing. We, I think people, depending on your age group and demographics utilize Instagram and Facebook almost equally, probably more on the Instagram side, so we use both. One of the mistakes I made in early on was doing paper mailers. I spent a thousand plus dollars on them and only one person came in and I just, I really wish I’d never done that. What I would really like to know is from the listeners is whether or not they’ve engaged in marketing from print media, if that’s been helpful for them because that’s also something on the 2024 goal list. Do I start getting magazine ads? I don’t know if they’re lucrative or not. I don’t know if they work.

[MICHELLE] (26:21):

I think it really depends on the magazine. And something like small to medium size and local tends to do well for people. I’m sure you’ve seen the, it’s like a local magazine, like the really high quality ones, but then they have “interviews” or they’ll like feature someone and they’re on the cover. They most likely paid for that. Not always, but sometimes. And so I think that those “features,” which are actually like a paid ad, but it’s really about getting to know the person and the business. And so the consumer does not necessarily realize that they’re paying for it and it gives such a nice perspective on a person’s business and where they came from. And so that I think tends to do really well. But it’s the the little business card size ads in the back. I don’t know who’s looking at those anymore. I know that I don’t as a consumer I know, but maybe other people do.

[GUDRUN] (27:20):

But 20 years ago people really did. And I just, I don’t think that that’s true anymore. I know we’ve been approached by a lot of different magazines to be featured, but it’s all paid, and I’ve just never done a paid ad, but maybe it’s time. I don’t know. Because again, you asked in the beginning like how it’s been with both businesses and in the second location is slower than the first. We opened in the winter and in Chicago and so it’s been harder to get those walk by, walk in the door people. I’ll never open another location in the winter ever again. And so I’m looking for new ways to market.

[MICHELLE] (27:57):

The polar vortex really prevents people from wanting to go outside. I just, yeah, we have the same thing here where clinic is a little slow in January. It’s also post holidays. People have less disposable income. They’re paying for all the things that they purchased. That’s right. And here it’s, it was 18 degrees this morning without windchill and it’s like, why people, don’t want to go out if they don’t have to. They don’t want to make another stop at the end of the day. So it’s, well yeah, what are the creative things that you can think of to convince them? And you have a sauna? Ooh, I would capitalize on that.

[GUDRUN] (28:32):

We do have a sauna, which does very, very well in the winter.

[MICHELLE] (28:36):

I love that, heck yeah.

[GUDRUN] (28:37):

That for sure. And I also just love having the sauna from an eastern medicine perspective. I think it’s so nice to just warm your body. And it’s a real infrared sauna. It’s not the kind that like makes you sweat and sweat until you feel like you’re ill. It’s a proper infrared sauna and I just think, I had this one patient recently, she could not, she had been sick about three weeks ago, hasn’t been able to get better, was actually on the verge of tears being like, when am I going to start feeling better? She got her acupuncture and then did the sauna and she walked out like a new woman and it was —

[MICHELLE] (29:09):

Oh, I love that.

[GUDRUN] (29:10):

It was magically transformative. I was like, yes, this is why we do what we do.

[MICHELLE] (29:15):

It definitely like cooks the heat into your bones

[GUDRUN] (29:18):

It really, really does.

[MICHELLE] (29:21):

Well, I have one more question for you and that is, what is your definition of success?

[GUDRUN] (29:26):

What a good question. And everyone should really ask themselves this. I asked one of my friends the other day that exact question, she’s in venture capital, so her life is very different, and her answer was being on the Midas list, which means like everything you touch turns to gold, which is a very good definition of success. But like as an acupuncturist, what is my definition of success? This is, it should be something you can measure. I don’t know that my answer is one that you can measure though.

[MICHELLE] (29:53):

I think most people’s are not.

[GUDRUN] (29:56):

I think that my definition of success is having a wonderful work-life balance where I spend time on my work and it grows, I spend time with my family as we grow, and I share the magical power of acupuncture with people who never would’ve tried it. That’s the Moon Rabbit brand. Make it accessible, make it friendly so that people who otherwise would be afraid of it actually get to take advantage of our beautiful medicine.

[MICHELLE] (30:23):

I love that you incorporated into that definition the ongoing growth of both your business and your family like it’s being present. It’s a process.

[GUDRUN] (30:33):

It’s a process. That’s right. And it’s probably never ending. Success is some highest tree branch that maybe I’ll never get to, but I’m always striving to get to there.

[MICHELLE] (30:44):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here and spending time with us today. How can we find you online? Where can people connect with you?

[GUDRUN] (30:54):

Please come visit our website, moonrabbitacupuncture.com. You can also follow us on social media at Moon Rabbit Acupuncture. Feel free to email us, any of us, anytime. Our contact information is on our website. We are happy to talk to new acupuncturists, new business owners and anyone out there who’s curious about Moon Rabbit. And I just want to thank you, Michelle, for having me. It has been a pleasure. I love talking to like-minded people and I think that what you’re doing by spreading the word of acupuncture and growing your own business and how to market yourself is so important because it’s not taught in school and we all need to know.

[MICHELLE] (31:27):

Thank you so much. I appreciate everything you’re doing as well.

(31:30):

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